5 ms·

The sun is a physical body, so a physical explanation makes sense. The problem is, our subjective experience isn't actually physical so the same logic doesn't

The sun is a physical body, so a physical explanation makes sense. The problem is, our subjective experience isn't actually physical so the same logic doesn't apply. Our subjective experience has no mass, no shape, no size, and can't be measured. It may correspond to movements in the brain, but the experience itself is not material. For all we know we could be in the matrix, and our subjective experpence could be just as real. In fact Elon musk thinks it's a very high probability that we are in the matrix. Since our experience of the world is not material it doesn't seem to follow that there must be a material explanation for it.

Smaug123 9y ago
Ponder this: the number 15 exists but isn't material. It is an extrapolated common property of physical systems. The number $2^789 - 53$ exists but isn't material; and you've never seen a physical system which embodies that number, but there could plausibly be one. Why could your consciousness not similarly be an extrapolated property of a physical system, without being physical itself?
- placebo 9y ago
  That's a good question and the answer is that both the sun and the number 15 are concepts created by the mind because creating concepts has great survival value. You are conscious of these concepts. "Consciousness" itself is also a concept you are conscious of. We tend to confuse the map with the territory - perhaps because believing the reality of the map makes us more real and gives a sense of control over things - I wouldn't know. What I am convinced of is that consciousness (and I'm not referring to the concept of it) is not a product of the mind, but vice versa.
  - andrepd 9y ago
    The sun is a physical body that exists despite us, 15 exists only on the mind.
    - placebo 9y ago
      Perhaps investigate what physicality is beyond the awareness of it. The only reason something objective exists is that there's a separate subject to say so. And no, this doesn't mean that nothing existed prior to human beings, it does mean however that the division of the world into "physical" vs "mental", "objective" vs. "subjective", "me" vs. "not me" was created by the human mind.
inlineint 9y ago
I doubt that the subjective experience of the world is as immaterial as some want to believe. Our subjective experience of the outside world can be quantified in terms of our ability to make predictions about the world and use them. All of us make and use predictions about the perceived reality as part of our conscious experience. However, if you have accurate enough representation of the outside world in your mind, it puts physical limits on the minimum amount of entropy your brain can have. And entropy is a completely physical quantity. There is an article [1] I found to be interesting that explains why entropy, as defined in Physics, of the same physical system can be different in eyes of different observers with different prior knowledge/reasoning abilities/etc. In a nutshell, it makes perfect physical sense because if one would take into account that all these observers can't exist without physical medium and that their mediums should also be considered to be parts of the physical system of interest. But then it becomes clear that accuracy of the subjective representation or experiences of the outside world has a direct effect on the entropy of the underlying physical medium because this is what the second law of thermodynamics, applied to the whole system of an observer and the system it interacts with, says. [1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/o5/the_second_law_of_thermodynamics_and_engines_of/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/o5/the_second_law_of_thermodynamics_...

Smaug123 9y ago

Ponder this: the number 15 exists but isn't material. It is an extrapolated common property of physical systems. The number $2^789 - 53$ exists but isn't material; and you've never seen a physical system which embodies that number, but there could plausibly be one. Why could your consciousness not similarly be an extrapolated property of a physical system, without being physical itself?

placebo 9y ago
That's a good question and the answer is that both the sun and the number 15 are concepts created by the mind because creating concepts has great survival value. You are conscious of these concepts. "Consciousness" itself is also a concept you are conscious of. We tend to confuse the map with the territory - perhaps because believing the reality of the map makes us more real and gives a sense of control over things - I wouldn't know. What I am convinced of is that consciousness (and I'm not referring to the concept of it) is not a product of the mind, but vice versa.
- andrepd 9y ago
  The sun is a physical body that exists despite us, 15 exists only on the mind.
  - placebo 9y ago
    Perhaps investigate what physicality is beyond the awareness of it. The only reason something objective exists is that there's a separate subject to say so. And no, this doesn't mean that nothing existed prior to human beings, it does mean however that the division of the world into "physical" vs "mental", "objective" vs. "subjective", "me" vs. "not me" was created by the human mind.

inlineint 9y ago

I doubt that the subjective experience of the world is as immaterial as some want to believe. Our subjective experience of the outside world can be quantified in terms of our ability to make predictions about the world and use them. All of us make and use predictions about the perceived reality as part of our conscious experience. However, if you have accurate enough representation of the outside world in your mind, it puts physical limits on the minimum amount of entropy your brain can have. And entropy is a completely physical quantity. There is an article [1] I found to be interesting that explains why entropy, as defined in Physics, of the same physical system can be different in eyes of different observers with different prior knowledge/reasoning abilities/etc. In a nutshell, it makes perfect physical sense because if one would take into account that all these observers can't exist without physical medium and that their mediums should also be considered to be parts of the physical system of interest. But then it becomes clear that accuracy of the subjective representation or experiences of the outside world has a direct effect on the entropy of the underlying physical medium because this is what the second law of thermodynamics, applied to the whole system of an observer and the system it interacts with, says. [1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/o5/the_second_law_of_thermodynamics_and_engines_of/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/o5/the_second_law_of_thermodynamics_...