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> Another common theme I noticed is when the man in question stays in the gray area where individual incidents aren't clearly over the line and might not qualif

> Another common theme I noticed is when the man in question stays in the gray area where individual incidents aren't clearly over the line and might not qualify legally as sexual harassment, but in context and in aggregate it's clear why a woman would feel very uncomfortable. This seems like a slippery slope. I can imagine malicious but careful predators who constantly test boundaries in a conscious effort to achieve a sexual goal. But I can also imagine a poor socially awkward guy who just has a severe crush, but is doing his damnedest not to say or do anything to act on it- and a woman who would be particularly sensitive to his unwanted romantic desire. Both would be "incidents that don't cross the line but in aggregate make the woman feel uncomfortable", but the latter deserves understanding and _perhaps_ a calm discussion, but definitely not punishment. I'm just saying, even the gray area has a spectrum- but any policies people come up with to handle this, would need to establish a threshold higher than just "a woman felt uncomfortable around a specific man", or perhaps a gentle grade of responses.

adamlett 9y ago
How is it a slippery slope? Towards what? Will women eventually begin to feel uncomfortable about situations that are clearly not sexual? Women are already reluctant to come forward when subjected to overt sexual harassment, let alone "gray area" harassment. I don't think anyone has to fear any kind of slippery slope here.
- knodi123 9y ago
  > How is it a slippery slope? It is describing a continued change of standards over time, with no clearly defined end-goal other than "nobody ever feels uncomfortable". > Towards what? Towards a point where a woman can punish a man for being socially awkward because he has a crush. > Will women eventually begin to feel uncomfortable about situations that are clearly not sexual? "Clearly" is a useless word here. And sexual? What about romantic? What about platonic, but more than is welcome? They already do feel uncomfortable as a result of unwanted attention. I've seen it happen. The person I was replying to was suggesting a world where that is actionable. > Women are already reluctant to come forward when subjected to overt sexual harassment, let alone "gray area" harassment. Some are reluctant, which is regrettable and we should support them. Some are not reluctant. And some are eager, in hope of a payday. All of those exist. > I don't think anyone has to fear any kind of slippery slope here. When a person is discussing a world where even the nebulously defined gray area is legally actionable, and the only standard is "a woman felt uncomfortable" - yes. It seems like you're replying viscerally to the idea that sexual harassment is not real, or should not be punished? I never suggested such a thing. I just think that if we're going to try and un-blur the gray area, then we need objectively defined standards.
brian-armstrong 9y ago
The parent post is likely talking about unwanted advances and sexual references, not "awkwardness." If having a crush on someone causes you to make uncomfortable sexual inneundos at them or suggest they should sleep with you, the the problem is your self control, not a question of grey areas.
- FeepingCreature 9y ago
  And if it was always going to be uncomfortable sexual innuendos or propositioning for sex, then it wouldn't be a grey area. The point here was incidents that don't cross "the line", which means the location of the line is suddenly up for debate, so you don't even know if you did something wrong.
  - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
    Isn't the location of the line always up for debate, though? Since people created the line and give it power, it moves with our consciousness and will. The line today is not where it was in 1890. As women gain a stronger voice, we should expect the line to move. Assuming that men actually care about their input, they'd cooperate in shifting the line to an acceptable standard for both parties. If the line is up for debate, you would know if you did something wrong - unless you're not following the debate. If you're not following the debate, you really don't have anyone to blame but yourself.
    - FeepingCreature 9y ago
      Of course, "the debate" is an abstraction and it's actually a million different debates in a million different places.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]

adamlett 9y ago

How is it a slippery slope? Towards what? Will women eventually begin to feel uncomfortable about situations that are clearly not sexual? Women are already reluctant to come forward when subjected to overt sexual harassment, let alone "gray area" harassment. I don't think anyone has to fear any kind of slippery slope here.

knodi123 9y ago
> How is it a slippery slope? It is describing a continued change of standards over time, with no clearly defined end-goal other than "nobody ever feels uncomfortable". > Towards what? Towards a point where a woman can punish a man for being socially awkward because he has a crush. > Will women eventually begin to feel uncomfortable about situations that are clearly not sexual? "Clearly" is a useless word here. And sexual? What about romantic? What about platonic, but more than is welcome? They already do feel uncomfortable as a result of unwanted attention. I've seen it happen. The person I was replying to was suggesting a world where that is actionable. > Women are already reluctant to come forward when subjected to overt sexual harassment, let alone "gray area" harassment. Some are reluctant, which is regrettable and we should support them. Some are not reluctant. And some are eager, in hope of a payday. All of those exist. > I don't think anyone has to fear any kind of slippery slope here. When a person is discussing a world where even the nebulously defined gray area is legally actionable, and the only standard is "a woman felt uncomfortable" - yes. It seems like you're replying viscerally to the idea that sexual harassment is not real, or should not be punished? I never suggested such a thing. I just think that if we're going to try and un-blur the gray area, then we need objectively defined standards.

brian-armstrong 9y ago

The parent post is likely talking about unwanted advances and sexual references, not "awkwardness." If having a crush on someone causes you to make uncomfortable sexual inneundos at them or suggest they should sleep with you, the the problem is your self control, not a question of grey areas.

FeepingCreature 9y ago
And if it was always going to be uncomfortable sexual innuendos or propositioning for sex, then it wouldn't be a grey area. The point here was incidents that don't cross "the line", which means the location of the line is suddenly up for debate, so you don't even know if you did something wrong.
- grasshopperpurp 9y ago
  Isn't the location of the line always up for debate, though? Since people created the line and give it power, it moves with our consciousness and will. The line today is not where it was in 1890. As women gain a stronger voice, we should expect the line to move. Assuming that men actually care about their input, they'd cooperate in shifting the line to an acceptable standard for both parties. If the line is up for debate, you would know if you did something wrong - unless you're not following the debate. If you're not following the debate, you really don't have anyone to blame but yourself.
  - FeepingCreature 9y ago
    Of course, "the debate" is an abstraction and it's actually a million different debates in a million different places.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]