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I agree my reply was not helpful, but there was a point I was trying to make: Sometimes people who are keen to defend harassers might do so because they exhibi

I agree my reply was not helpful, but there was a point I was trying to make: Sometimes people who are keen to defend harassers might do so because they exhibit similar behaviours themselves or hold similar beliefs and want to defend themselves. Here is an example from this very story: Caldbeck tweeted in support of Uber: "Also mob mentality w @Uber right now. Guilty before proven innocent on everything". I genuinely think it's worth self-examining one's motivations if someone's first instinct is to defend the man in such a case. I say this without trying to accuse anyone, sexism is subtle and affects everyone, and it's through self examination that we can grow and improve.

jsmthrowaway 9y ago
I'm aware of the point you were trying to make; it was what spawned my comment, because it is wrong. Adding words to it makes me agree less, not more. You're basically saying anybody who lobbies for not persecuting someone based on allegations must be sympathetic to the allegations, in every case, and you cite going through Twitter as if you're compiling oppo to make your point. If you don't see the danger in that line of thought, or how it makes you complicit in mob-style behavior when the incentives line up, I'm not sure how best to show you. Ad hominem being acceptable on a few pet issues is a value system I've noticed that many people, including you, have. I would ask why. I've had this turned on me, too, hence why I'm not surprised; I'm reminded of defense lawyers who receive death threats and actual violence, as well.
braveo 9y ago
or they do so because they've gotten seriously tired of the unfairness of it all. When everything becomes sexual harassment, how can you trust accusations of sexual harassment? It's like when people use the word violence to describe words, or call it rape when a man says something they don't like. How can you trust the allegations in that sort of an environment? It makes those of us who are a bit more moderate start to distrust everything we hear in terms of these loaded words. I've said this many times, but when you start using these words for every little thing, you do a disservice to those who are ACTUALLY being sexually harassed, raped, etc. I for one cannot wait for this hysteria to end. I obviously don't believe men should be sexually harassing women (or vice versa), but the current climate has gone off the deep end. Things that would be considered simply misunderstandings, ackwardness, and so forth are getting people (mostly men) completely lambasted.
- eropple 9y ago
  "Everything" hasn't become sexual harassment. I've dated coworkers. I have been rebuffed by coworkers. I have even been under the impression that a coworker might be into me who was not. And--somehow--I have not been accused of sexual harassment. Maybe because I am respectful in my approach, cut it out if it's not appreciated, and never persist past being rebuffed. The "misunderstandings" about which you wring your hands are weaponized against women in the spirit of "don't be hysterical". You're not being moderate when you express viewpoints like this. You're just rationalizing bad shit. And, judging from your sterling work throughout this thread, you know it, too.
  - braveo 9y ago
    I must be a horrible human being for having a differing opinion.
    - eropple 9y ago
      This isn't about "differing opinions", this is about "your opinion has a demonstrable harmful effect on the culture in which we all live." Choosing to excuse sexual harassment is real awful but you can always choose to not be awful. So cut the pity party and get down from that cross you've put yourself on.
      - braveo 9y ago
        “Of all the tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under the omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - CS Lewis.
khazhoux 9y ago
> I genuinely think it's worth self-examining one's motivations if someone's first instinct is to defend the man in such a case. Why do you assume it was his (or her?) first instinct? This HN thread has already well-established that Caldbeck's behavior is repugnant. Do we need every single poster to +1, or can people propose questions for discussion without being accused of being part of the problem?

jsmthrowaway 9y ago

I'm aware of the point you were trying to make; it was what spawned my comment, because it is wrong. Adding words to it makes me agree less, not more. You're basically saying anybody who lobbies for not persecuting someone based on allegations must be sympathetic to the allegations, in every case, and you cite going through Twitter as if you're compiling oppo to make your point. If you don't see the danger in that line of thought, or how it makes you complicit in mob-style behavior when the incentives line up, I'm not sure how best to show you. Ad hominem being acceptable on a few pet issues is a value system I've noticed that many people, including you, have. I would ask why. I've had this turned on me, too, hence why I'm not surprised; I'm reminded of defense lawyers who receive death threats and actual violence, as well.

braveo 9y ago

or they do so because they've gotten seriously tired of the unfairness of it all. When everything becomes sexual harassment, how can you trust accusations of sexual harassment? It's like when people use the word violence to describe words, or call it rape when a man says something they don't like. How can you trust the allegations in that sort of an environment? It makes those of us who are a bit more moderate start to distrust everything we hear in terms of these loaded words. I've said this many times, but when you start using these words for every little thing, you do a disservice to those who are ACTUALLY being sexually harassed, raped, etc. I for one cannot wait for this hysteria to end. I obviously don't believe men should be sexually harassing women (or vice versa), but the current climate has gone off the deep end. Things that would be considered simply misunderstandings, ackwardness, and so forth are getting people (mostly men) completely lambasted.

eropple 9y ago
"Everything" hasn't become sexual harassment. I've dated coworkers. I have been rebuffed by coworkers. I have even been under the impression that a coworker might be into me who was not. And--somehow--I have not been accused of sexual harassment. Maybe because I am respectful in my approach, cut it out if it's not appreciated, and never persist past being rebuffed. The "misunderstandings" about which you wring your hands are weaponized against women in the spirit of "don't be hysterical". You're not being moderate when you express viewpoints like this. You're just rationalizing bad shit. And, judging from your sterling work throughout this thread, you know it, too.
- braveo 9y ago
  I must be a horrible human being for having a differing opinion.
  - eropple 9y ago
    This isn't about "differing opinions", this is about "your opinion has a demonstrable harmful effect on the culture in which we all live." Choosing to excuse sexual harassment is real awful but you can always choose to not be awful. So cut the pity party and get down from that cross you've put yourself on.
    - braveo 9y ago
      “Of all the tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under the omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - CS Lewis.

khazhoux 9y ago

> I genuinely think it's worth self-examining one's motivations if someone's first instinct is to defend the man in such a case. Why do you assume it was his (or her?) first instinct? This HN thread has already well-established that Caldbeck's behavior is repugnant. Do we need every single poster to +1, or can people propose questions for discussion without being accused of being part of the problem?