5 ms·

Wow, he might be good at programming, but from his writing, he sure seems like a jerk (Zed Shaw's long lost twin?). I've known many professionals who, being ver

by andreyf 16y ago

Wow, he might be good at programming, but from his writing, he sure seems like a jerk (Zed Shaw's long lost twin?). I've known many professionals who, being very good at what they do, charge both less and more than $1k/hour, but none of them would ever mention their rate in public, much less feel the need to explain why they deserve it. On the other hand, this is great PR for software engineers: a couple more posts like this, and I'll be able to double my rate and still seem like a deal by comparison :)

patio11 16y ago
I am sort of torn. Lets not be the bucket of crabs, who have to pull down anyone threatening to leave the bucket. Engineers need to learn to be comfortable with business. Part of that is professionalism, which cuts against talking rates too loudly. Part of it is being uttetly unembarrassed to say that, yes, you are priced at what the market will bear and the market will bear an awful lot.
- alttab 16y ago
  I'll agree with the bucket of crabs comment, as we all tend to do this. However, I'm not going to hire this guy not because he is too expensive, but because he has no problem branding himself as a douche.
- donaq 16y ago
  Another reason not to be the bucket of crabs, guided strictly by self-interest, is that if one person declares that he's charging a big sum for doing something and consistently getting paid, it will raise the bar for the entire industry. In other words, if you're a good iPhone developer, you can also raise your rates while still giving your customers a discount compared to that Mike Lee guy.
alexkiwi 16y ago
I'm not so sure I would want to work with this guy, Zed Shaw on the other hand was one of the nicest people I've ever gotten an e-mail from
- agotterer 16y ago
  I met Zed in person a few months ago at a meetup. I had an awesome 45 min chat about everything technology. What a nice guy. I wish him all the best. Mike Lee's blog title is "motherfucker". From that alone you can derive what type of person you're about to do business with. Theres no question his experience and skills are incredible. Fact of the matter is there are other successful app developers who likely have a resume that is comparable. Think of it like dating. Would you date the hottest girl if she had a shitty personality? Maybe :)
  - kenshi 16y ago
    Do you really think you can derive the character of a person based on the title of their blog? Seems pretty damned shallow to me.
    - natrius 16y ago
      Life is full of uncertainties. Our job is to assign probabilities to outcomes and use those probabilities to make choices. I don't think it's unreasonable for that piece of evidence to increase the probability of his disagreeableness in someone's mind.
    - waterlesscloud 16y ago
      Why is it shallow? It's a facade he has deliberately chosen to present to the world. That choice implies things, and he's either aware of that fact or utterly clueless. Note that I'm not saying anything about what conclusion I draw from that fact, just that it's a fact.
      - kenshi 16y ago
        Because that line of thinking implies there is a link between style of expression (external presentation) and character values (morals etc). It's like judging someone's character by how they dress (e.g. suit == good, dependable etc).
  - mkramlich 16y ago
Adaptive 16y ago
Tangential, but I feel compelled to note that: * I have never met Zed * Like many others I have heard all sorts of stories about him * People are capable of change * In my recent experience Zed has always seemed civil, thoughtful and passionate about code He may have been a jerk in the past, I can't speak to that, but he seems like a decent guy now. Yours, the anti-pigeonholing squad
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- andreyf 16y ago
  Err, I meant to make it clear that I'm comparing their public writing style, not how they are in person.
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  He's always been 98% civil, thoughtful and friendly in person. That doesn't mean he won't point out if you or somebody else is being a moron or a dickhead, but he does it judiciously. Zed, like so many other successful writers (e.g. Mark Twain, Churchill, every famous playwright people quote on their blogs) has made a career out of being a sharp-witted asshole in print.
mpk 16y ago
I really don't get why it's generally assumed that Zed is an asshole. I exchanged a few technical emails with him when he was just getting started on Mongrel (v1) and his replies were always friendly (as well as being relevant). He's put a lot of code out there and the parts that I have used have been great. Remember when Bear Stearns fell? He was leading some Rails project there at the time (IIRC) and he used his hacker media fame to get his team members new jobs before himself. No idea how that panned out, but that doesn't exactly sound like asshole behavior to me. Yes I know he puts out rants from time to time. They make for fun and educational reading. As far as I'm concerned a good cathartic rant every now and again speaks for a person, though I wouldn't recommend everybody to go out and put it all online. (It seems to have worked wonders for Zed, though :).
- sjs 16y ago
  Because most of us don't know him and his online persona is pure asshole. It's that simple. I've read that he's a nice guy in person all over the place and that's great, good for him. He writes like a spoiled, attention-grabbing 15 year old, and he's very insulting and arrogant. Then we have to read about it on news.yc and reddit for a week after every rant. I mean look at this thread, one mention of the guy and all of us are talking about him instead of the topic at hand. Someone described him as poison and I agree 100% with that assessment.
  - elliottkember 16y ago
    From memory, I think it says somewhere on his blog that the whole tone is just an act. It gets him a lot of publicity, and sometimes he says some interesting things. I'd be willing to bet he's a really nice guy. In my book, it takes a lot of nice to take yourself so lightly.

by andreyf 16y ago

patio11 16y ago

I am sort of torn. Lets not be the bucket of crabs, who have to pull down anyone threatening to leave the bucket. Engineers need to learn to be comfortable with business. Part of that is professionalism, which cuts against talking rates too loudly. Part of it is being uttetly unembarrassed to say that, yes, you are priced at what the market will bear and the market will bear an awful lot.

alttab 16y ago
I'll agree with the bucket of crabs comment, as we all tend to do this. However, I'm not going to hire this guy not because he is too expensive, but because he has no problem branding himself as a douche.
donaq 16y ago
Another reason not to be the bucket of crabs, guided strictly by self-interest, is that if one person declares that he's charging a big sum for doing something and consistently getting paid, it will raise the bar for the entire industry. In other words, if you're a good iPhone developer, you can also raise your rates while still giving your customers a discount compared to that Mike Lee guy.

alexkiwi 16y ago

I'm not so sure I would want to work with this guy, Zed Shaw on the other hand was one of the nicest people I've ever gotten an e-mail from

agotterer 16y ago
I met Zed in person a few months ago at a meetup. I had an awesome 45 min chat about everything technology. What a nice guy. I wish him all the best. Mike Lee's blog title is "motherfucker". From that alone you can derive what type of person you're about to do business with. Theres no question his experience and skills are incredible. Fact of the matter is there are other successful app developers who likely have a resume that is comparable. Think of it like dating. Would you date the hottest girl if she had a shitty personality? Maybe :)
- kenshi 16y ago
  Do you really think you can derive the character of a person based on the title of their blog? Seems pretty damned shallow to me.
  - natrius 16y ago
    Life is full of uncertainties. Our job is to assign probabilities to outcomes and use those probabilities to make choices. I don't think it's unreasonable for that piece of evidence to increase the probability of his disagreeableness in someone's mind.
  - waterlesscloud 16y ago
    Why is it shallow? It's a facade he has deliberately chosen to present to the world. That choice implies things, and he's either aware of that fact or utterly clueless. Note that I'm not saying anything about what conclusion I draw from that fact, just that it's a fact.
    - kenshi 16y ago
      Because that line of thinking implies there is a link between style of expression (external presentation) and character values (morals etc). It's like judging someone's character by how they dress (e.g. suit == good, dependable etc).
- mkramlich 16y ago

Adaptive 16y ago

Tangential, but I feel compelled to note that: * I have never met Zed * Like many others I have heard all sorts of stories about him * People are capable of change * In my recent experience Zed has always seemed civil, thoughtful and passionate about code He may have been a jerk in the past, I can't speak to that, but he seems like a decent guy now. Yours, the anti-pigeonholing squad

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
andreyf 16y ago
Err, I meant to make it clear that I'm comparing their public writing style, not how they are in person.
ahoyhere 16y ago
He's always been 98% civil, thoughtful and friendly in person. That doesn't mean he won't point out if you or somebody else is being a moron or a dickhead, but he does it judiciously. Zed, like so many other successful writers (e.g. Mark Twain, Churchill, every famous playwright people quote on their blogs) has made a career out of being a sharp-witted asshole in print.

mpk 16y ago

I really don't get why it's generally assumed that Zed is an asshole. I exchanged a few technical emails with him when he was just getting started on Mongrel (v1) and his replies were always friendly (as well as being relevant). He's put a lot of code out there and the parts that I have used have been great. Remember when Bear Stearns fell? He was leading some Rails project there at the time (IIRC) and he used his hacker media fame to get his team members new jobs before himself. No idea how that panned out, but that doesn't exactly sound like asshole behavior to me. Yes I know he puts out rants from time to time. They make for fun and educational reading. As far as I'm concerned a good cathartic rant every now and again speaks for a person, though I wouldn't recommend everybody to go out and put it all online. (It seems to have worked wonders for Zed, though :).

sjs 16y ago
Because most of us don't know him and his online persona is pure asshole. It's that simple. I've read that he's a nice guy in person all over the place and that's great, good for him. He writes like a spoiled, attention-grabbing 15 year old, and he's very insulting and arrogant. Then we have to read about it on news.yc and reddit for a week after every rant. I mean look at this thread, one mention of the guy and all of us are talking about him instead of the topic at hand. Someone described him as poison and I agree 100% with that assessment.
- elliottkember 16y ago
  From memory, I think it says somewhere on his blog that the whole tone is just an act. It gets him a lot of publicity, and sometimes he says some interesting things. I'd be willing to bet he's a really nice guy. In my book, it takes a lot of nice to take yourself so lightly.