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> I am surprised by the lack of outrage over this behavior. How about we wait for due process first before we start tearing into it? There's a reason why "inno

by urda 9y ago

> I am surprised by the lack of outrage over this behavior. How about we wait for due process first before we start tearing into it? There's a reason why "innocent until proven guilty" is an important part of our society and comments like these undermine that.

sp332 9y ago
Due process is for criminal charges and sentencing. It doesn't apply anywhere else. [Edit: OK and other state stuff. Point stands.] Even if you sue someone, you only need a "preponderance of evidence" and not to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Outside of a courtroom, you can literally make up anything you want. For example, if you're a founder and you hear a rumor of a VC being a serial harasser, you might decide to skip that company. You don't have to justify yourself to anyone.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Due process is for criminal charges and sentencing. Due process is for any government action affecting life, liberty, or property, including civil proceedings. But still not relevant to private reactions, though certainly one could argue that some of the principles which motivate due process protections have moral relevance in a private context as well.
- stickfigure 9y ago
  Judging others based on unsubstantiated rumors creates a toxic environment too. We can behave better than that.
  - sp332 9y ago
    Updating your risk assessment doesn't mean you 100% believe someone is guilty. I stand away from cliff edges even if I'm pretty sure I'm not going to trip and fall to my death. And it's not like we haven't heard both sides: he already released two statements.
    - ithinkinstereo 9y ago
      His statements are pretty damning and all but confirm this is all true. Edit: here is his statement Obviously, I am deeply disturbed by these allegations. While significant context is missing from the incidents reported by The Information, I deeply regret ever causing anyone to feel uncomfortable. The fact is that I have been privileged to have worked with female entrepreneurs throughout my career and I sincerely apologize to anyone who I made uncomfortable by my actions. There’s no denying this is an issue in the venture community, and I hate that my behavior has contributed to it. Judge for yourself. Innocent, non-harassers, don't apologize when accused of such vile things (especially married, "family" men with kids - a daughter nonetheless).
      - handedness 9y ago
        > Judge for yourself. Why the need to judge? Whether he's guilty or innocent, it's a tragic story for all involved, and it's not our job to make that decision: this is why we have a legal system on which our society is founded. Now, if I had a direct relationship with Mr. Caldbeck I would certainly make my own estimations and act accordingly, but I don't understand why everyone feels this need to act as judge and jury of everything that happens. That tendency isn't one of the better aspects of our nature.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > this is why we have a legal system on which our society is founded. No, we do not. Our society is not founded on the legal system; the legal system is one feature of our society, intended to deal with the most serious failures of normal operations.
        handedness 9y ago
        You're arguing a point that's irrelevant to my conclusion, but it's difficult to see the rule of law as anything other than part of our foundation. Remove it and a whole lot of things stop working in a hurry.
  - ithinkinstereo 9y ago
    That's true, but we should also take into account how the nature of sexual harassment, and the often power imbalance between the harasser and victim, naturally provides the harasser with all the advantages. You are free to judge for yourself, but from the Information and Axios article, there does seem to be a preponderance of evidence to suggest Justin is either a serial sexual harasser/predator, at worst, or a totally inappropriate jerk-douchebag, at the very least. Both deserve condemnation. Bad actors need to be rooted out and ostracized, especially bad actor VCs.
    - handedness 9y ago
      > the nature of sexual harassment, and the often power imbalance between the harasser and victim, naturally provides the harasser with all the advantages. That is correct in cases where harassment has occurred, yes. In cases of false accusation, though, the accuser has nearly all of the advantages. And it's not as if it never happens, either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Estimates_of_prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Estim... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_allegation_of_child_sexual_abuse#Prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_allegation_of_child_sexu... Which is why due process is important both legally, and culturally. While I understand how people directly impacted by the event (and their loved ones) have neither the inclination nor the capacity to withhold judgement, mob-like indignation on the part of the public about every story which is reported is a dynamic that hasn't served us well thus far, and the situation isn't showing any signs of improving.
      - ebola1717 9y ago
        Your links say we can believe these allegations with 90-98% confidence. Actually, multiply that by 6 women, and that's 99.9999% confidence, assuming the low end of that. My request services only have to have a 99.9% success rate.
        thethirdone 9y ago
        That's assuming that the false accusations are statistically independent. I would expect false accusations to be more common in cases with more accusers.
  - mrkurt 9y ago
    Good journalism, multiple sources, and multiple _named_ sources is pretty good substantiation.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Due process is for criminal charges and sentencing. It doesn't apply anywhere else. Waiting for the facts/verdict though, and not forming an internet mob based on whatever one person or another said, SHOULD apply anywhere.
  - sp332 9y ago
    Hm, I am kinda against internet mobs. But I don't see a way to form a consensus about whether this guy is guilty or not, or what to do about it if he is. At the same time, we do need some kind of defense mechanism to make sure people are secure. We can't just let everything slide because we're perpetually waiting for more evidence.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >At the same time, we do need some kind of defense mechanism to make sure people are secure. Well, how about the law? >We can't just let everything slide because we're perpetually waiting for more evidence. But it's not 'sliding', it's going to court. And it doesn't concern us anyway -- it's not like we witnessed it in real life and didn't speak out.
      - jsjohnst 9y ago
        At least one of the down votes you got was for the last sentence in your post. Stopping sexual assault should concern everyone!
        coldtea 9y ago
        >Stopping sexual assault should concern everyone! Well, some downvotes should come your way for misattribution too then. I didn't say that "Stopping sexual assault should not concern us" (or anything to that effect). I said the case is of no concern to us. First, it's not our place to make judgements of guilt or innocence without knowing what transpired and not even knowing those people. Ee don't even know for sure whether it was actually sexual assault or not -- that's for the law to decide. (Of course we might be suspicious of the law, or a specific court result, or the way a trial was conducted etc. But we are not even at that stage yet). Plus, you're not stopping sexual assault by saying you are against it in an internet forum (and concerning an undecided case). Heck, even rapists would say they are "against sexual assault" in public.

by urda 9y ago

sp332 9y ago

Due process is for criminal charges and sentencing. It doesn't apply anywhere else. [Edit: OK and other state stuff. Point stands.] Even if you sue someone, you only need a "preponderance of evidence" and not to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Outside of a courtroom, you can literally make up anything you want. For example, if you're a founder and you hear a rumor of a VC being a serial harasser, you might decide to skip that company. You don't have to justify yourself to anyone.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> Due process is for criminal charges and sentencing. Due process is for any government action affecting life, liberty, or property, including civil proceedings. But still not relevant to private reactions, though certainly one could argue that some of the principles which motivate due process protections have moral relevance in a private context as well.
stickfigure 9y ago
Judging others based on unsubstantiated rumors creates a toxic environment too. We can behave better than that.
- sp332 9y ago
  Updating your risk assessment doesn't mean you 100% believe someone is guilty. I stand away from cliff edges even if I'm pretty sure I'm not going to trip and fall to my death. And it's not like we haven't heard both sides: he already released two statements.
  - ithinkinstereo 9y ago
    His statements are pretty damning and all but confirm this is all true. Edit: here is his statement Obviously, I am deeply disturbed by these allegations. While significant context is missing from the incidents reported by The Information, I deeply regret ever causing anyone to feel uncomfortable. The fact is that I have been privileged to have worked with female entrepreneurs throughout my career and I sincerely apologize to anyone who I made uncomfortable by my actions. There’s no denying this is an issue in the venture community, and I hate that my behavior has contributed to it. Judge for yourself. Innocent, non-harassers, don't apologize when accused of such vile things (especially married, "family" men with kids - a daughter nonetheless).
    - handedness 9y ago
      > Judge for yourself. Why the need to judge? Whether he's guilty or innocent, it's a tragic story for all involved, and it's not our job to make that decision: this is why we have a legal system on which our society is founded. Now, if I had a direct relationship with Mr. Caldbeck I would certainly make my own estimations and act accordingly, but I don't understand why everyone feels this need to act as judge and jury of everything that happens. That tendency isn't one of the better aspects of our nature.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > this is why we have a legal system on which our society is founded. No, we do not. Our society is not founded on the legal system; the legal system is one feature of our society, intended to deal with the most serious failures of normal operations.
        handedness 9y ago
        You're arguing a point that's irrelevant to my conclusion, but it's difficult to see the rule of law as anything other than part of our foundation. Remove it and a whole lot of things stop working in a hurry.
- ithinkinstereo 9y ago
  That's true, but we should also take into account how the nature of sexual harassment, and the often power imbalance between the harasser and victim, naturally provides the harasser with all the advantages. You are free to judge for yourself, but from the Information and Axios article, there does seem to be a preponderance of evidence to suggest Justin is either a serial sexual harasser/predator, at worst, or a totally inappropriate jerk-douchebag, at the very least. Both deserve condemnation. Bad actors need to be rooted out and ostracized, especially bad actor VCs.
  - handedness 9y ago
    > the nature of sexual harassment, and the often power imbalance between the harasser and victim, naturally provides the harasser with all the advantages. That is correct in cases where harassment has occurred, yes. In cases of false accusation, though, the accuser has nearly all of the advantages. And it's not as if it never happens, either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Estimates_of_prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Estim... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_allegation_of_child_sexual_abuse#Prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_allegation_of_child_sexu... Which is why due process is important both legally, and culturally. While I understand how people directly impacted by the event (and their loved ones) have neither the inclination nor the capacity to withhold judgement, mob-like indignation on the part of the public about every story which is reported is a dynamic that hasn't served us well thus far, and the situation isn't showing any signs of improving.
    - ebola1717 9y ago
      Your links say we can believe these allegations with 90-98% confidence. Actually, multiply that by 6 women, and that's 99.9999% confidence, assuming the low end of that. My request services only have to have a 99.9% success rate.
      - thethirdone 9y ago
        That's assuming that the false accusations are statistically independent. I would expect false accusations to be more common in cases with more accusers.
- mrkurt 9y ago
  Good journalism, multiple sources, and multiple _named_ sources is pretty good substantiation.
coldtea 9y ago
>Due process is for criminal charges and sentencing. It doesn't apply anywhere else. Waiting for the facts/verdict though, and not forming an internet mob based on whatever one person or another said, SHOULD apply anywhere.
- sp332 9y ago
  Hm, I am kinda against internet mobs. But I don't see a way to form a consensus about whether this guy is guilty or not, or what to do about it if he is. At the same time, we do need some kind of defense mechanism to make sure people are secure. We can't just let everything slide because we're perpetually waiting for more evidence.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >At the same time, we do need some kind of defense mechanism to make sure people are secure. Well, how about the law? >We can't just let everything slide because we're perpetually waiting for more evidence. But it's not 'sliding', it's going to court. And it doesn't concern us anyway -- it's not like we witnessed it in real life and didn't speak out.
    - jsjohnst 9y ago
      At least one of the down votes you got was for the last sentence in your post. Stopping sexual assault should concern everyone!
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >Stopping sexual assault should concern everyone! Well, some downvotes should come your way for misattribution too then. I didn't say that "Stopping sexual assault should not concern us" (or anything to that effect). I said the case is of no concern to us. First, it's not our place to make judgements of guilt or innocence without knowing what transpired and not even knowing those people. Ee don't even know for sure whether it was actually sexual assault or not -- that's for the law to decide. (Of course we might be suspicious of the law, or a specific court result, or the way a trial was conducted etc. But we are not even at that stage yet). Plus, you're not stopping sexual assault by saying you are against it in an internet forum (and concerning an undecided case). Heck, even rapists would say they are "against sexual assault" in public.