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Seems like paypal accomplishes the same thing. I have to explicitly agree to be billed a specific amount through paypal's checkout process and it is not possibl

Seems like paypal accomplishes the same thing. I have to explicitly agree to be billed a specific amount through paypal's checkout process and it is not possible for the merchant to bill me again unless I explicitly agree to a recurring subscription (and even then, the recurrence is managed by the paypal subscription API, preventing the merchant from receiving any more funds than what I explicitly agreed to)

mikeash 9y ago
I don't think any blockchain technology accomplishes anything that couldn't also be accomplished with a trusted third party. The innovation, if you see it that way, is always in doing things without any trusted third party.
- root_axis 9y ago
  That's sort of side-stepping the point. if a trusted third party is a satisfactory solution for the problem then a more complex and obscure trustless alternative is not compelling. Additionally, your response is in the context of the question: "How does Ethereum help with retail?". Your answer is "it helps to avoid erroneous charges", but that doesn't answer the question of why Ethereum is a compelling option compared to a system that has already solved this problem without the inefficiencies of the blockchain approach.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    You seem intent on getting me to defend a point I'm not making. I'm just describing what Ethereum could provide here and what makes it different from other solutions. The closest I came to actually praising it in any way was calling it "kind of cool." I'm not actually attempting to say, in any way, that this is actually useful or the way everything should be done or anything like that.
    - root_axis 9y ago
      I'm not intent on anything, I am just pointing out that your stated reasoning for why eth is useful in a retail context isn't compelling. It'd be like if someone asked "why is an iPad useful for web development" and you responded "well, iPads support bluetooth keyboards so users don't have to input code on a touch screen"... ok well that's true, but it's not compelling because keyboard input is already a solved problem without the need to confine your development environment to the limitations of a tablet.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Nobody said anything about "compelling." The person asked, "How does Ethereum help with retail?" I answered. What exactly is your problem with me here?
        root_axis 9y ago
        Ok... replace compelling with insightful or noteworthy. You're being pretty defensive and seem to be taking my responses personally. I'm discussing your reasoning, not your personality. This is a discussion forum, and as you stated, someone asked a question, you answered, and I explained why I find your answer to be lacking, it's as simple as that. I didn't attack you or insult you so I'm not sure why you perceive a simple reply to your comment as my having "a problem" with you. If you find mild criticism to be so harrowing you're more than free to ignore my replies at your own discretion.
  - source99 9y ago
    Does this help alleviate scenarios where Paypal has the power to shutdown a seller's account and hold their funds?
    - root_axis 9y ago
      Sure thing. Cryptomoney is very advantageous for merchants because their funds cannot be frozen nor are they vulnerable to chargebacks or any other type of restrictions placed on them by financial companies attempting to discourage or incentivize specific behaviors. On the other hand, in the centralized world, consumers enjoy many protections from fraudulent and incompetent merchants and gain nothing by participating in a system where all consumer protections are absent.
  - joeyspn 9y ago
    The fact that you don't see a use case where this solution could shine doesn't mean others can't see it... Paired with bittorrent or IPFS this is perfect for digital goods... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_goods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_goods
    - root_axis 9y ago
      Care to give some specific examples instead of just making vague allusions to how perfect it is without providing any details?
      - joeyspn 9y ago
        The "specific examples" are so obvious that I presumed that any HNer could guess at least some of them, but I understand that not everyone has had the "aha!" moment with blockchains.... Here's an specific example, and certainly not the only one: I sell a digital good valued in $20k and I don't need to give paypal $580 (2.9% fee), it can be accomplished with $0 fees with the same level of trustworthiness. You just got rid of the middlemen... Now multiply this sale for 100 articles my store sells daily and you'll begin to understand why this is so powerful.
        root_axis 9y ago
        $20,000 digital goods are so uncommon it might as well be a fantasy. Of course, it all adds up, and I will concede that you will save money on fees, but you can very easily end up paying a similar price for conversion surcharges and unpredictable daily price swings that can easily cost you more than 3% (though, there is the possibility that you might gain some money in the conversion, but that type of volatility has its own indirect costs in terms of business planning)
        joeyspn 9y ago
        > $20,000 digital goods are so uncommon it might as well be a fantasy. $20k subscriptions in finance (like a market data live feed) are not only common but even cheap. Now ask yourself why Wall Street is so much more hyped with blockchains than SV... > You can very easily end up paying a similar price for conversion surcharges and unpredictable daily price swings You don't have to pay with ETH, you could do things like peg your ERC20 token to the USD, 1 of your token = $1, the underlying asset (ETH) can do whatever it wants with the price, your tokens are decoupled from its value. The monetary policy is up to the party that issues the token... Remember: this is "programmable money".
- mannykannot 9y ago
  If you did not verify the code yourself, you are trusting someone.

mikeash 9y ago

I don't think any blockchain technology accomplishes anything that couldn't also be accomplished with a trusted third party. The innovation, if you see it that way, is always in doing things without any trusted third party.

root_axis 9y ago
That's sort of side-stepping the point. if a trusted third party is a satisfactory solution for the problem then a more complex and obscure trustless alternative is not compelling. Additionally, your response is in the context of the question: "How does Ethereum help with retail?". Your answer is "it helps to avoid erroneous charges", but that doesn't answer the question of why Ethereum is a compelling option compared to a system that has already solved this problem without the inefficiencies of the blockchain approach.
- mikeash 9y ago
  You seem intent on getting me to defend a point I'm not making. I'm just describing what Ethereum could provide here and what makes it different from other solutions. The closest I came to actually praising it in any way was calling it "kind of cool." I'm not actually attempting to say, in any way, that this is actually useful or the way everything should be done or anything like that.
  - root_axis 9y ago
    I'm not intent on anything, I am just pointing out that your stated reasoning for why eth is useful in a retail context isn't compelling. It'd be like if someone asked "why is an iPad useful for web development" and you responded "well, iPads support bluetooth keyboards so users don't have to input code on a touch screen"... ok well that's true, but it's not compelling because keyboard input is already a solved problem without the need to confine your development environment to the limitations of a tablet.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Nobody said anything about "compelling." The person asked, "How does Ethereum help with retail?" I answered. What exactly is your problem with me here?
      - root_axis 9y ago
        Ok... replace compelling with insightful or noteworthy. You're being pretty defensive and seem to be taking my responses personally. I'm discussing your reasoning, not your personality. This is a discussion forum, and as you stated, someone asked a question, you answered, and I explained why I find your answer to be lacking, it's as simple as that. I didn't attack you or insult you so I'm not sure why you perceive a simple reply to your comment as my having "a problem" with you. If you find mild criticism to be so harrowing you're more than free to ignore my replies at your own discretion.
- source99 9y ago
  Does this help alleviate scenarios where Paypal has the power to shutdown a seller's account and hold their funds?
  - root_axis 9y ago
    Sure thing. Cryptomoney is very advantageous for merchants because their funds cannot be frozen nor are they vulnerable to chargebacks or any other type of restrictions placed on them by financial companies attempting to discourage or incentivize specific behaviors. On the other hand, in the centralized world, consumers enjoy many protections from fraudulent and incompetent merchants and gain nothing by participating in a system where all consumer protections are absent.
- joeyspn 9y ago
  The fact that you don't see a use case where this solution could shine doesn't mean others can't see it... Paired with bittorrent or IPFS this is perfect for digital goods... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_goods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_goods
  - root_axis 9y ago
    Care to give some specific examples instead of just making vague allusions to how perfect it is without providing any details?
    - joeyspn 9y ago
      The "specific examples" are so obvious that I presumed that any HNer could guess at least some of them, but I understand that not everyone has had the "aha!" moment with blockchains.... Here's an specific example, and certainly not the only one: I sell a digital good valued in $20k and I don't need to give paypal $580 (2.9% fee), it can be accomplished with $0 fees with the same level of trustworthiness. You just got rid of the middlemen... Now multiply this sale for 100 articles my store sells daily and you'll begin to understand why this is so powerful.
      - root_axis 9y ago
        $20,000 digital goods are so uncommon it might as well be a fantasy. Of course, it all adds up, and I will concede that you will save money on fees, but you can very easily end up paying a similar price for conversion surcharges and unpredictable daily price swings that can easily cost you more than 3% (though, there is the possibility that you might gain some money in the conversion, but that type of volatility has its own indirect costs in terms of business planning)
        joeyspn 9y ago
        > $20,000 digital goods are so uncommon it might as well be a fantasy. $20k subscriptions in finance (like a market data live feed) are not only common but even cheap. Now ask yourself why Wall Street is so much more hyped with blockchains than SV... > You can very easily end up paying a similar price for conversion surcharges and unpredictable daily price swings You don't have to pay with ETH, you could do things like peg your ERC20 token to the USD, 1 of your token = $1, the underlying asset (ETH) can do whatever it wants with the price, your tokens are decoupled from its value. The monetary policy is up to the party that issues the token... Remember: this is "programmable money".
mannykannot 9y ago
If you did not verify the code yourself, you are trusting someone.