6 ms·

How does Ethereum help with retail? It's not like the smart contracts can verify that the customer has actually received the physical item.

mikeash 9y ago
It would at least enforce agreement about what is being purchased and how much each item costs. Not getting what you purchased would still have to be resolved by other means, but it would avoid scenarios where I tried to buy something for $1 and got charged $5, or where I tried to buy 1 item and got charged for 10, or similar. I don't know if that's enough to make it a compelling use case, but it's kind of cool.
- root_axis 9y ago
  Seems like paypal accomplishes the same thing. I have to explicitly agree to be billed a specific amount through paypal's checkout process and it is not possible for the merchant to bill me again unless I explicitly agree to a recurring subscription (and even then, the recurrence is managed by the paypal subscription API, preventing the merchant from receiving any more funds than what I explicitly agreed to)
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I don't think any blockchain technology accomplishes anything that couldn't also be accomplished with a trusted third party. The innovation, if you see it that way, is always in doing things without any trusted third party.
    - root_axis 9y ago
      That's sort of side-stepping the point. if a trusted third party is a satisfactory solution for the problem then a more complex and obscure trustless alternative is not compelling. Additionally, your response is in the context of the question: "How does Ethereum help with retail?". Your answer is "it helps to avoid erroneous charges", but that doesn't answer the question of why Ethereum is a compelling option compared to a system that has already solved this problem without the inefficiencies of the blockchain approach.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        You seem intent on getting me to defend a point I'm not making. I'm just describing what Ethereum could provide here and what makes it different from other solutions. The closest I came to actually praising it in any way was calling it "kind of cool." I'm not actually attempting to say, in any way, that this is actually useful or the way everything should be done or anything like that.
        root_axis 9y ago
        I'm not intent on anything, I am just pointing out that your stated reasoning for why eth is useful in a retail context isn't compelling. It'd be like if someone asked "why is an iPad useful for web development" and you responded "well, iPads support bluetooth keyboards so users don't have to input code on a touch screen"... ok well that's true, but it's not compelling because keyboard input is already a solved problem without the need to confine your development environment to the limitations of a tablet.
        mikeash 9y ago
        Nobody said anything about "compelling." The person asked, "How does Ethereum help with retail?" I answered. What exactly is your problem with me here?
        root_axis 9y ago
        Ok... replace compelling with insightful or noteworthy. You're being pretty defensive and seem to be taking my responses personally. I'm discussing your reasoning, not your personality. This is a discussion forum, and as you stated, someone asked a question, you answered, and I explained why I find your answer to be lacking, it's as simple as that. I didn't attack you or insult you so I'm not sure why you perceive a simple reply to your comment as my having "a problem" with you. If you find mild criticism to be so harrowing you're more than free to ignore my replies at your own discretion.
      - source99 9y ago
    - mannykannot 9y ago
      If you did not verify the code yourself, you are trusting someone.
mjfl 9y ago
I think this is more to solve a problem with Ethereum (that it's hard to spend it on things) than to solve a problem with retail.
- jtmarmon 9y ago
  Doesn't this make it about 1000x harder to spend money on things with etherium? Current status quo: you have to sell some etherium for USD to buy stuff. Every store accepts this. Alternatively, you can only shop at stores that use this software (0)
xorcist 9y ago
Not Ethereum, but smart contracts have been demonstrated in Bitcoin to guarantee delivery of certain immaterial goods for which you can build specialized zero-knowledge proofs. You could for example buy cryptographic keys this way. The idea has been around some time and was used to buy a Sudoku solution for a demonstration last year: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/ https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-conting...
- openasocket 9y ago
  That only works for selling information, not physical products.
  - OJFord 9y ago
    Yes, or as GP said, "certain immaterial goods".
ThrustVectoring 9y ago
What? Yeah they can. Have an escrow that releases the sale price to the seller and additional security deposits to both parties when the buyer sends proof that they received a nonce shipped with the physical item. You can even add a refund mechanism by allowing the buyer to send back another nonce along with the returned item, which when redeemed returns all escrows back to whoever originally paid in.
- recursive 9y ago
  The buyer wouldn't receive the nonce until they received the physical item, at which time they could claim they did not receive it.
  - zeroxfe 9y ago
    That's why you have the additional security deposits.
- openasocket 9y ago
  That could work. But I think the nonce is redundant, the buyer just has to say they received it in an authenticated manner.
- peculiar 9y ago
  There is a saying that goes "If it's not broke, don't fix it". What problem are we solving here exactly by replacing a centralized Shopify / Amazon / E-bay by the solution you've described? Is it better from the common user's perspective?

mikeash 9y ago

It would at least enforce agreement about what is being purchased and how much each item costs. Not getting what you purchased would still have to be resolved by other means, but it would avoid scenarios where I tried to buy something for $1 and got charged $5, or where I tried to buy 1 item and got charged for 10, or similar. I don't know if that's enough to make it a compelling use case, but it's kind of cool.

root_axis 9y ago
Seems like paypal accomplishes the same thing. I have to explicitly agree to be billed a specific amount through paypal's checkout process and it is not possible for the merchant to bill me again unless I explicitly agree to a recurring subscription (and even then, the recurrence is managed by the paypal subscription API, preventing the merchant from receiving any more funds than what I explicitly agreed to)
- mikeash 9y ago
  I don't think any blockchain technology accomplishes anything that couldn't also be accomplished with a trusted third party. The innovation, if you see it that way, is always in doing things without any trusted third party.
  - root_axis 9y ago
    That's sort of side-stepping the point. if a trusted third party is a satisfactory solution for the problem then a more complex and obscure trustless alternative is not compelling. Additionally, your response is in the context of the question: "How does Ethereum help with retail?". Your answer is "it helps to avoid erroneous charges", but that doesn't answer the question of why Ethereum is a compelling option compared to a system that has already solved this problem without the inefficiencies of the blockchain approach.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      You seem intent on getting me to defend a point I'm not making. I'm just describing what Ethereum could provide here and what makes it different from other solutions. The closest I came to actually praising it in any way was calling it "kind of cool." I'm not actually attempting to say, in any way, that this is actually useful or the way everything should be done or anything like that.
      - root_axis 9y ago
        I'm not intent on anything, I am just pointing out that your stated reasoning for why eth is useful in a retail context isn't compelling. It'd be like if someone asked "why is an iPad useful for web development" and you responded "well, iPads support bluetooth keyboards so users don't have to input code on a touch screen"... ok well that's true, but it's not compelling because keyboard input is already a solved problem without the need to confine your development environment to the limitations of a tablet.
        mikeash 9y ago
        Nobody said anything about "compelling." The person asked, "How does Ethereum help with retail?" I answered. What exactly is your problem with me here?
        root_axis 9y ago
        Ok... replace compelling with insightful or noteworthy. You're being pretty defensive and seem to be taking my responses personally. I'm discussing your reasoning, not your personality. This is a discussion forum, and as you stated, someone asked a question, you answered, and I explained why I find your answer to be lacking, it's as simple as that. I didn't attack you or insult you so I'm not sure why you perceive a simple reply to your comment as my having "a problem" with you. If you find mild criticism to be so harrowing you're more than free to ignore my replies at your own discretion.
    - source99 9y ago
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    If you did not verify the code yourself, you are trusting someone.

mjfl 9y ago

I think this is more to solve a problem with Ethereum (that it's hard to spend it on things) than to solve a problem with retail.

jtmarmon 9y ago
Doesn't this make it about 1000x harder to spend money on things with etherium? Current status quo: you have to sell some etherium for USD to buy stuff. Every store accepts this. Alternatively, you can only shop at stores that use this software (0)

xorcist 9y ago

Not Ethereum, but smart contracts have been demonstrated in Bitcoin to guarantee delivery of certain immaterial goods for which you can build specialized zero-knowledge proofs. You could for example buy cryptographic keys this way. The idea has been around some time and was used to buy a Sudoku solution for a demonstration last year: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/ https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-conting...

openasocket 9y ago
That only works for selling information, not physical products.
- OJFord 9y ago
  Yes, or as GP said, "certain immaterial goods".

ThrustVectoring 9y ago

What? Yeah they can. Have an escrow that releases the sale price to the seller and additional security deposits to both parties when the buyer sends proof that they received a nonce shipped with the physical item. You can even add a refund mechanism by allowing the buyer to send back another nonce along with the returned item, which when redeemed returns all escrows back to whoever originally paid in.

recursive 9y ago
The buyer wouldn't receive the nonce until they received the physical item, at which time they could claim they did not receive it.
- zeroxfe 9y ago
  That's why you have the additional security deposits.
openasocket 9y ago
That could work. But I think the nonce is redundant, the buyer just has to say they received it in an authenticated manner.
peculiar 9y ago
There is a saying that goes "If it's not broke, don't fix it". What problem are we solving here exactly by replacing a centralized Shopify / Amazon / E-bay by the solution you've described? Is it better from the common user's perspective?