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I mean, if we're talking about Boston then the roads weren't originally designed for cars either: they were created for horse drawn carriages. http://www.mass.

I mean, if we're talking about Boston then the roads weren't originally designed for cars either: they were created for horse drawn carriages. http://www.mass.gov/eea/docs/dcr/pe/historic-parkways/4d72bd01.pdf http://www.mass.gov/eea/docs/dcr/pe/historic-parkways/4d72bd... They have been engineered to accommodate cars, so now they're undergoing a renovation for bikes.

coldpie 9y ago
> so now they're undergoing a renovation for bikes. Good! Renovate them to accommodate bikes. That's great, do more of that. But "sharing the road" is a terrible solution, which leads to the honks and dangerous situations the OP described. Neither the biker nor the drivers in the OP's post are in the wrong. It's just a really terrible situation that really should not happen.
- Jacqued 9y ago
  Wait, you mean drivers deliberately hitting a biker with their car are not in the wrong?
  - coldpie 9y ago
    Heheh, I feel like I'm making my point poorly :) The driver is in a 3000 pound vehicle capable of accelerating from 5 MPH to 60 MPH in a couple of seconds. The biker is an unprotected human capable of traveling 10, maybe 20 MPH as an absolute maximum. My point is that these two objects cannot share traffic on a US street that is designed for cars traveling 30 MPH for more than a brief period of time. If they do share that traffic lane, bad things will happen. Humans will make bad decisions, because humans are dumb and fallible. My point is that situation should not occur in the first place. It's engineered to fail, and sure enough, it does.
    - Kluny 9y ago
      Better to leave the car out of it then. After all, Boston's narrow winding streets aren't designed to accomodate them.
    - the_gastropod 9y ago
      Maybe speed limits should be reduced to 25 MPH within cities (a la NYC).
      - bryanlarsen 9y ago
        20mph is a nice magic number for speed limits. That's the maximum speed where a collision with a pedestrian is highly unlikely to be fatal.
    - Ozark 9y ago
      The only people that will make bad decisions are the aggressive angry drivers, which should be removed from the road ways for the benefit of all innocent people.
      - loco5niner 9y ago
        Well, that's obviously not true. I've seen bicyclists.
- landhar 9y ago
  > Neither the biker nor the driver in the OP's post are in the wrong In the OP's situation, the drivers that exhibit aggressive and dangerous behavior are clearly in the wrong. You could argue that their frustration is understandable, but their behavior is certainly wrong.
  - coldpie 9y ago
    So is the guy who steals an unlocked bike. What are you going to do? You're going to not create that situation in the first place. You're going to use a bike lock. "Share the road" is a dumb solution, as evidenced by the OP. It simply does not work. Find another solution.
    - untog 9y ago
      To be clear: you think that someone stealing an unlocked bike is not "in the wrong"?
      - coldpie 9y ago
        I agree I phrased that poorly. My point is humans are predictable. If you leave an unlocked bike, it will get stolen. Yes, it's the thief's fault and the thief is wrong, but you could have done something to avoid it, too.
    - and0 9y ago
      Sounds like you're really stretching here. Share the road works fine as a solution without dramatically overhauling current infrastructure. Just don't be a mean driver.
    - tbihl 9y ago
      So do you have a solution in mind, or are you asking for one? If the latter, then it's simple: narrower lanes. If you make the lanes 9ft wide in each direction, I promise that you will never again be delayed by the speed of bikers, though the bikers may find themselves upset about motor vehicle speeds being too low.
- kingbirdy 9y ago
  Honking and running your car in to someone because you're mad at them for legally using the road is hardly in the right
- nkrisc 9y ago
  Sharing the road is dangerous with dangerous, aggressive drivers. Tailgating and bumping bikers is the fault of the driver, not an unavoidable consequence of sharing the road.
  - coldpie 9y ago
    So why does it happen, and how do you propose to solve this? Complain on the Internet? Shake your first at those damn angry drivers? Something something driver's education? I mean, this is a real problem. "Share the road" doesn't work, and complaining on the Internet isn't going to suddenly fix it.
    - coddingtonbear 9y ago
      It seems like fining and, if necessary, revoking the drivers licenses of dangerously aggressive drivers might be a simple way of solving the problem, no? Sharing public goods is be the norm in other areas of society; why not on the road?
      - bobabooey02 9y ago
        You can't legislate away a cultural problem. See the drug wars, anti discrimination laws, and others. If we're going to be so cheap that we can't add bicycle infrastructure then we need to at least fund a public awareness campaign and possibly start teaching our kids about it.
        naravara 9y ago
        >You can't legislate away a cultural problem. [Lots of places beg to differ](https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/dutch-kids-have-different-relationship-bicycling.html https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/dutch-kids-have-different-r...). You can't bully people into being good, but there are lots of nudges like education and more thoughtful design that can move culture to work better.
        9y ago

coldpie 9y ago

> so now they're undergoing a renovation for bikes. Good! Renovate them to accommodate bikes. That's great, do more of that. But "sharing the road" is a terrible solution, which leads to the honks and dangerous situations the OP described. Neither the biker nor the drivers in the OP's post are in the wrong. It's just a really terrible situation that really should not happen.

Jacqued 9y ago
Wait, you mean drivers deliberately hitting a biker with their car are not in the wrong?
- coldpie 9y ago
  Heheh, I feel like I'm making my point poorly :) The driver is in a 3000 pound vehicle capable of accelerating from 5 MPH to 60 MPH in a couple of seconds. The biker is an unprotected human capable of traveling 10, maybe 20 MPH as an absolute maximum. My point is that these two objects cannot share traffic on a US street that is designed for cars traveling 30 MPH for more than a brief period of time. If they do share that traffic lane, bad things will happen. Humans will make bad decisions, because humans are dumb and fallible. My point is that situation should not occur in the first place. It's engineered to fail, and sure enough, it does.
  - Kluny 9y ago
    Better to leave the car out of it then. After all, Boston's narrow winding streets aren't designed to accomodate them.
  - the_gastropod 9y ago
    Maybe speed limits should be reduced to 25 MPH within cities (a la NYC).
    - bryanlarsen 9y ago
      20mph is a nice magic number for speed limits. That's the maximum speed where a collision with a pedestrian is highly unlikely to be fatal.
  - Ozark 9y ago
    The only people that will make bad decisions are the aggressive angry drivers, which should be removed from the road ways for the benefit of all innocent people.
    - loco5niner 9y ago
      Well, that's obviously not true. I've seen bicyclists.
landhar 9y ago
> Neither the biker nor the driver in the OP's post are in the wrong In the OP's situation, the drivers that exhibit aggressive and dangerous behavior are clearly in the wrong. You could argue that their frustration is understandable, but their behavior is certainly wrong.
- coldpie 9y ago
  So is the guy who steals an unlocked bike. What are you going to do? You're going to not create that situation in the first place. You're going to use a bike lock. "Share the road" is a dumb solution, as evidenced by the OP. It simply does not work. Find another solution.
  - untog 9y ago
    To be clear: you think that someone stealing an unlocked bike is not "in the wrong"?
    - coldpie 9y ago
      I agree I phrased that poorly. My point is humans are predictable. If you leave an unlocked bike, it will get stolen. Yes, it's the thief's fault and the thief is wrong, but you could have done something to avoid it, too.
  - and0 9y ago
    Sounds like you're really stretching here. Share the road works fine as a solution without dramatically overhauling current infrastructure. Just don't be a mean driver.
  - tbihl 9y ago
    So do you have a solution in mind, or are you asking for one? If the latter, then it's simple: narrower lanes. If you make the lanes 9ft wide in each direction, I promise that you will never again be delayed by the speed of bikers, though the bikers may find themselves upset about motor vehicle speeds being too low.
kingbirdy 9y ago
Honking and running your car in to someone because you're mad at them for legally using the road is hardly in the right
nkrisc 9y ago
Sharing the road is dangerous with dangerous, aggressive drivers. Tailgating and bumping bikers is the fault of the driver, not an unavoidable consequence of sharing the road.
- coldpie 9y ago
  So why does it happen, and how do you propose to solve this? Complain on the Internet? Shake your first at those damn angry drivers? Something something driver's education? I mean, this is a real problem. "Share the road" doesn't work, and complaining on the Internet isn't going to suddenly fix it.
  - coddingtonbear 9y ago
    It seems like fining and, if necessary, revoking the drivers licenses of dangerously aggressive drivers might be a simple way of solving the problem, no? Sharing public goods is be the norm in other areas of society; why not on the road?
    - bobabooey02 9y ago
      You can't legislate away a cultural problem. See the drug wars, anti discrimination laws, and others. If we're going to be so cheap that we can't add bicycle infrastructure then we need to at least fund a public awareness campaign and possibly start teaching our kids about it.
      - naravara 9y ago
        >You can't legislate away a cultural problem. [Lots of places beg to differ](https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/dutch-kids-have-different-relationship-bicycling.html https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/dutch-kids-have-different-r...). You can't bully people into being good, but there are lots of nudges like education and more thoughtful design that can move culture to work better.
        9y ago