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Show HN: Retail Store that runs on Ethereum

99 points by brakmic 9y ago

1ba9115454 9y ago
This first thing that popped into my head was Silk Road.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  But with the store itself running in the blockchain (I think that's how it works), so it's a lot harder for the FBI and co to infiltrate and take down. Of course, they could instead create legislation that illegalizes the use of Ethereum or any similar blockchain technology.
  - openasocket 9y ago
    There's a much simpler solution. Cops sell drugs on the market. Sellers have to physically mail the drugs to the customer, so they need a mailing address. Then instead of mailing drugs they raid the house. Pretty easy. And to get sellers they can buy drugs and trace the drugs they bought back to the dealer. The FBI may not be able to take down the entire store, but they don't have to.
    - Jenya_ 9y ago
      The first issue is addressed by a reputation system (e.g. like in LocalBitcoins where traders have the history and reputation). For cops to get a good reputation would mean actually selling drugs to a lot of people. And the second issue: what if cops traced the package to a country where selling these drugs is legal (e.g. generics in India)?
      - openasocket 9y ago
        No reputation system is perfect, especially in an anonymous setting. For the second issue, I guess they wouldn't do anything (though I'm pretty sure selling drugs to someone in a country where it is illegal is always illegal). But unless the only dealers on there are doing that they can still pretty easily catch dealers. And, even with a perfect reputation system, once you catch a dealer you can locate the addresses of all the customers he sold to and bust them, or keep his online business running for a while and busting buyers until his reputation runs out. EDIT: actually, does Ethereum even allow for hidden information between two parties? Isn't it just a public ledger so everyone can run the code and verify? That means anyone could get all the shipping addresses
        TylorF 9y ago
        For messaging you'd have to use some sort of public key encryption to protect the message. When thinking of platforms like Status.im I wondered the same thing for messaging, but they also have an actual client, not just on the blockchain.
      - Jtsummers 9y ago
        In an anonymous/pseudonymous system you can fake your reputation. If you can launder the coin being used, you can reuse it to create a bunch of fake sales and purchases with a randomized (but positive) score attached to the transactions (or some subset of them, people don't always provide ratings). This establishes the seller (and the buyer) reputations and allows them to interact with others. An account (seller or buyer) with a positive reputation could be hijacked if their computers are compromised or they reveal just enough PII for an investigative team to track them. Re second issue: It may be legal to sell (drug) in (nation). If it's not legal in (other nation), then you're breaking the law by sending it to (other nation) even if you're in (nation). Local legality does not protect you entirely, though it may shield you partially (through your nation not supporting extradition). But should you enter (other nation), be prepared to be arrested (this has happened several times in the US).
        Jach 9y ago
    - voidz 9y ago
      Isn't this called 'rackateering' and prohibited?
      - openasocket 9y ago
        Umm no, this isn't anything like racketeering. This is no different than any other sting operation.
        voidz 9y ago
        Ok. Gosh I got that one pretty wrong, didn't I.
- rootsudo 9y ago
  This was everyones first thought, I'd trust.
NwmG 9y ago
Check out openbazaar
openasocket 9y ago
How does Ethereum help with retail? It's not like the smart contracts can verify that the customer has actually received the physical item.
- mikeash 9y ago
  It would at least enforce agreement about what is being purchased and how much each item costs. Not getting what you purchased would still have to be resolved by other means, but it would avoid scenarios where I tried to buy something for $1 and got charged $5, or where I tried to buy 1 item and got charged for 10, or similar. I don't know if that's enough to make it a compelling use case, but it's kind of cool.
  - root_axis 9y ago
    Seems like paypal accomplishes the same thing. I have to explicitly agree to be billed a specific amount through paypal's checkout process and it is not possible for the merchant to bill me again unless I explicitly agree to a recurring subscription (and even then, the recurrence is managed by the paypal subscription API, preventing the merchant from receiving any more funds than what I explicitly agreed to)
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I don't think any blockchain technology accomplishes anything that couldn't also be accomplished with a trusted third party. The innovation, if you see it that way, is always in doing things without any trusted third party.
      - root_axis 9y ago
        That's sort of side-stepping the point. if a trusted third party is a satisfactory solution for the problem then a more complex and obscure trustless alternative is not compelling. Additionally, your response is in the context of the question: "How does Ethereum help with retail?". Your answer is "it helps to avoid erroneous charges", but that doesn't answer the question of why Ethereum is a compelling option compared to a system that has already solved this problem without the inefficiencies of the blockchain approach.
dbrgn 9y ago
I would be terribly afraid to write a real world retail system in Solidity. One stupid mistake and all the money is gone, without much you can do about it. And without formal verification, bugs are certain sooner or later.
- SirensOfTitan 9y ago
  You could insulate here by simply transferring to a hardcoded user wallet at relatively frequent intervals (like once a day). Worst case then, you lose a day of sales.
- scottshapiro 9y ago
  Would you feel more comfortable with Javascript on Lisk?
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    No - that does not appear to solve the verification problem.
  - Moshe_Silnorin 9y ago
    Security isn't graded on a curve. The crappiness of Lisk doesn't make Solidity any less crappy.
    - jfoutz 9y ago
      I kinda think it is. Not many systems can withstand a nation-state level attack. But, uh, most people get a pass on that.
- imcoconut 9y ago
  Do you have any thoughts on tezos [0], which claims to have a formally verifiable language for its blockchain contracts? [0] https://www.tezos.com/ https://www.tezos.com/
euparkeria 9y ago
Interesting, i will try to fork this project to do a used clothes store(Brechó in portuguese).
joeyspn 9y ago
This is so cool! I was starting to research the design of something like this... The ERC20 token idea is also great, people then would have a reference implementation for their own tokens... it could unlock a new wave of DApps. Kudos!
AdamSC1 9y ago
I'm unclear - how is this different than an eCommerce system (say Shopify or WooCommerce) that had a plugin to accept Eth? Is it just that the registrations are handled in contracts too?
jstanley 9y ago
> Besides the web interface I'm planning to implement an ERC20 compliant token Why??
- rspeer 9y ago
  In case people want to give him lots of money for no reason.
tuxxy 9y ago
Ethereum will not scale. /Every/ single node will have to run these contracts. Not your node, not ten distributed nodes, but /every/ node has to run the contract. I wouldn't trust anything with my money that works this way.
- SirensOfTitan 9y ago
  > Ethereum will not scale. I understand your not wanting to put your money into a bleeding edge technology, but there are /plenty/ of ways that Ethereum is working on the scaling problem: 1. Sharding and shard-based consensus algorithms are already in development and can be deployed after PoS hits. 2. Raiden offers scalability solutions for certain DApps.
  - ghayes 9y ago
    Can't you also snapshot state and start with a genesis block that covers all transactions up to that checkpoint?
  - tuxxy 9y ago
    > can be deployed after PoS hits. Why is this considered a solution? All it does is formalize Vitalik's control over the network. If he doesn't like it, it gets forked. Not to mention, do you know how few Ethereum nodes there are that /actually/ verify the contracts? Proof of Stake isn't going to incentivize anyone to execute the contracts on the scale that is needed to maintain this network. Sharding won't work if there aren't enough people to work with. What about DoS contracts? I know for a fact, that I can write code to brick SSDs by writing as much as possible to them. I honestly have no idea why anyone thinks joining into a botnet that allows arbitrary code execution is okay. Furthermore, all it takes is a single vulnerability in the Ethereum VM to cause a chain split that could, theoretically, throw every node off.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

99 points by brakmic 9y ago

1ba9115454 9y ago

This first thing that popped into my head was Silk Road.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
But with the store itself running in the blockchain (I think that's how it works), so it's a lot harder for the FBI and co to infiltrate and take down. Of course, they could instead create legislation that illegalizes the use of Ethereum or any similar blockchain technology.
- openasocket 9y ago
  There's a much simpler solution. Cops sell drugs on the market. Sellers have to physically mail the drugs to the customer, so they need a mailing address. Then instead of mailing drugs they raid the house. Pretty easy. And to get sellers they can buy drugs and trace the drugs they bought back to the dealer. The FBI may not be able to take down the entire store, but they don't have to.
  - Jenya_ 9y ago
    The first issue is addressed by a reputation system (e.g. like in LocalBitcoins where traders have the history and reputation). For cops to get a good reputation would mean actually selling drugs to a lot of people. And the second issue: what if cops traced the package to a country where selling these drugs is legal (e.g. generics in India)?
    - openasocket 9y ago
      No reputation system is perfect, especially in an anonymous setting. For the second issue, I guess they wouldn't do anything (though I'm pretty sure selling drugs to someone in a country where it is illegal is always illegal). But unless the only dealers on there are doing that they can still pretty easily catch dealers. And, even with a perfect reputation system, once you catch a dealer you can locate the addresses of all the customers he sold to and bust them, or keep his online business running for a while and busting buyers until his reputation runs out. EDIT: actually, does Ethereum even allow for hidden information between two parties? Isn't it just a public ledger so everyone can run the code and verify? That means anyone could get all the shipping addresses
      - TylorF 9y ago
        For messaging you'd have to use some sort of public key encryption to protect the message. When thinking of platforms like Status.im I wondered the same thing for messaging, but they also have an actual client, not just on the blockchain.
    - Jtsummers 9y ago
      In an anonymous/pseudonymous system you can fake your reputation. If you can launder the coin being used, you can reuse it to create a bunch of fake sales and purchases with a randomized (but positive) score attached to the transactions (or some subset of them, people don't always provide ratings). This establishes the seller (and the buyer) reputations and allows them to interact with others. An account (seller or buyer) with a positive reputation could be hijacked if their computers are compromised or they reveal just enough PII for an investigative team to track them. Re second issue: It may be legal to sell (drug) in (nation). If it's not legal in (other nation), then you're breaking the law by sending it to (other nation) even if you're in (nation). Local legality does not protect you entirely, though it may shield you partially (through your nation not supporting extradition). But should you enter (other nation), be prepared to be arrested (this has happened several times in the US).
      - Jach 9y ago
  - voidz 9y ago
    Isn't this called 'rackateering' and prohibited?
    - openasocket 9y ago
      Umm no, this isn't anything like racketeering. This is no different than any other sting operation.
      - voidz 9y ago
        Ok. Gosh I got that one pretty wrong, didn't I.
rootsudo 9y ago
This was everyones first thought, I'd trust.

NwmG 9y ago

Check out openbazaar

openasocket 9y ago

How does Ethereum help with retail? It's not like the smart contracts can verify that the customer has actually received the physical item.

mikeash 9y ago
It would at least enforce agreement about what is being purchased and how much each item costs. Not getting what you purchased would still have to be resolved by other means, but it would avoid scenarios where I tried to buy something for $1 and got charged $5, or where I tried to buy 1 item and got charged for 10, or similar. I don't know if that's enough to make it a compelling use case, but it's kind of cool.
- root_axis 9y ago
  Seems like paypal accomplishes the same thing. I have to explicitly agree to be billed a specific amount through paypal's checkout process and it is not possible for the merchant to bill me again unless I explicitly agree to a recurring subscription (and even then, the recurrence is managed by the paypal subscription API, preventing the merchant from receiving any more funds than what I explicitly agreed to)
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I don't think any blockchain technology accomplishes anything that couldn't also be accomplished with a trusted third party. The innovation, if you see it that way, is always in doing things without any trusted third party.
    - root_axis 9y ago
      That's sort of side-stepping the point. if a trusted third party is a satisfactory solution for the problem then a more complex and obscure trustless alternative is not compelling. Additionally, your response is in the context of the question: "How does Ethereum help with retail?". Your answer is "it helps to avoid erroneous charges", but that doesn't answer the question of why Ethereum is a compelling option compared to a system that has already solved this problem without the inefficiencies of the blockchain approach.

dbrgn 9y ago

I would be terribly afraid to write a real world retail system in Solidity. One stupid mistake and all the money is gone, without much you can do about it. And without formal verification, bugs are certain sooner or later.

SirensOfTitan 9y ago
You could insulate here by simply transferring to a hardcoded user wallet at relatively frequent intervals (like once a day). Worst case then, you lose a day of sales.
scottshapiro 9y ago
Would you feel more comfortable with Javascript on Lisk?
- mannykannot 9y ago
  No - that does not appear to solve the verification problem.
- Moshe_Silnorin 9y ago
  Security isn't graded on a curve. The crappiness of Lisk doesn't make Solidity any less crappy.
  - jfoutz 9y ago
    I kinda think it is. Not many systems can withstand a nation-state level attack. But, uh, most people get a pass on that.
imcoconut 9y ago
Do you have any thoughts on tezos [0], which claims to have a formally verifiable language for its blockchain contracts? [0] https://www.tezos.com/ https://www.tezos.com/

euparkeria 9y ago

Interesting, i will try to fork this project to do a used clothes store(Brechó in portuguese).

joeyspn 9y ago

This is so cool! I was starting to research the design of something like this... The ERC20 token idea is also great, people then would have a reference implementation for their own tokens... it could unlock a new wave of DApps. Kudos!

AdamSC1 9y ago

I'm unclear - how is this different than an eCommerce system (say Shopify or WooCommerce) that had a plugin to accept Eth? Is it just that the registrations are handled in contracts too?

jstanley 9y ago

> Besides the web interface I'm planning to implement an ERC20 compliant token Why??

rspeer 9y ago
In case people want to give him lots of money for no reason.

tuxxy 9y ago

Ethereum will not scale. /Every/ single node will have to run these contracts. Not your node, not ten distributed nodes, but /every/ node has to run the contract. I wouldn't trust anything with my money that works this way.

SirensOfTitan 9y ago
> Ethereum will not scale. I understand your not wanting to put your money into a bleeding edge technology, but there are /plenty/ of ways that Ethereum is working on the scaling problem: 1. Sharding and shard-based consensus algorithms are already in development and can be deployed after PoS hits. 2. Raiden offers scalability solutions for certain DApps.
- ghayes 9y ago
  Can't you also snapshot state and start with a genesis block that covers all transactions up to that checkpoint?
- tuxxy 9y ago
  > can be deployed after PoS hits. Why is this considered a solution? All it does is formalize Vitalik's control over the network. If he doesn't like it, it gets forked. Not to mention, do you know how few Ethereum nodes there are that /actually/ verify the contracts? Proof of Stake isn't going to incentivize anyone to execute the contracts on the scale that is needed to maintain this network. Sharding won't work if there aren't enough people to work with. What about DoS contracts? I know for a fact, that I can write code to brick SSDs by writing as much as possible to them. I honestly have no idea why anyone thinks joining into a botnet that allows arbitrary code execution is okay. Furthermore, all it takes is a single vulnerability in the Ethereum VM to cause a chain split that could, theoretically, throw every node off.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]