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America is now a second-tier country
- keithnz 9y agoseems a bit odd, you rank western countries on various things you always get, surprise, some kind of ranking and people can moan or boast about it..... in terms of the "points" difference, it's not too big comparatively. Not sure these kinds of indexes really tell the real story.
- arethuza 9y agoWith any of these rankings (also for things like universities) I always wonder if the authors start out with an idea of the desired output and then work backwards to select and weight the various factors to give the "right" answer.
- quickben 9y agoSo, what do you propose then? To measure the "wellness" of a country's population, they took stuff as health, education, etc. What would you choose?
- mbrodersen 9y agoWell show us how to do it better then.
- Zigurd 9y agoThey tell a story, nevertheless. Unless a form of measurement results in perverse incentives, it's still informative. US cops shoot a lot of people, disproportionately black. US prisons are stuffed, for a private profit or to keep an institutional flywheel spinning. US high schools that are not in rich suburbs could do a lot better, and the ones that are doing well enough are often complacent. US wars burned trillions of dollars our children will pay back with interest. Eventually large drags like these will pull down our overall national status, and failing to address them will drag us lower, for longer. Everybody has problems, but that's no excuse for not addressing our problems. Even less is it an excuse to pull out the dog whistle and say, in effect, "we can't be like Sweden because... um... we have too many differently pigmented people."
- mbrodersen 9y agoSo what would tell the "real" story then? Admitting there is a problem is the first step to finding a solution. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't solve anything.
- keithnz 9y agothe point is, I don't think this shows a problem, and I'm not sure, that even if you do admit a problem that the solution is any closer, potentially it's going to get worse. When we look at the big issues of the day, people see lots of problems and are trying to solve them with bad information often with lots of sound bite statistics. A lot of people here on HN would know the problems of simplified statistics don't really tell the story that it seems to be telling. A far better analysis is needed. But even with the best science, evidence, and analysis, we can still be a long long way from people even starting on working on a solution.
- amarant 9y ago"America leads the world when it comes to access to higher education" Is this really true? From what I hear, higher education is only available in America if you can afford it.. This is not the case in many other countries, and I'm not sure if American universities are of higher quality than for example Swedish ones (which are free for citizens).
- jlebrech 9y agomaybe just give education to those who want it.
- usmeteora 9y agoeverything comes with a price!
- jdavis703 9y agoIf you go to community college, get your two year degree and then use that to get your bachelor's degree it's pretty cheap. In my case it worked out to be about $6500/year (once you factor in scholarships and financial aid I actually made a "profit.") Also you can do this in only four years if you go to school full time...
- j7ake 9y agoand how does 6500 dollars per year compare to other countries? i would imagine many countries could offer better education at cheaper prices.
- isoprophlex 9y agoCould be cheaper. I'm in the Netherlands. 1600€/ year for a bachelor's and master's degree in theoretical chemistry, 5 years full time. Also, semi related, doing a PhD afterwards for 4 years paid me a ~1800€/month salary. I'm pretty happy with my local circumstances.
- jdavis703 9y ago
- MJPitt 9y agoAmerica is a continent, not a country.
- richmarr 9y agoHey, if we're getting picky it's two continents.
- gberger 9y agoDepends on where you're from. "The six-continent combined-America model is used in France and its former colonies, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Romania, Latin America, and Greece." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent
- richmarr 9y agoHuh, I did not know that.
- bluejekyll 9y agoLet me get this straight: most of those European countries perceive Europe to be a separate continent because of a mountain range from that of Asia... but the tiny little isthmus between North and South America is not enough to declare them separate? (no offense intended to Panama) I don't really care to be honest; I learned that there were 7... but if there were going to be only 6, it should be Asia and Europe that are combined, but my guess is there is more than geology dictating that decision. That Wikipedia link also mentions the 5 continent model, which also would seem to be more correct than a Europe being a separate continent.
- blisterpeanuts 9y agoIndia is considered a subcontinent, and Europe is traditionally (and incorrectly) termed a continent, but treated as a subcontinent. Life must have been simpler back in the Pangaea days.
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- apeyrard 9y ago"America leads the world when it comes to access to higher education." If you're rich, maybe, otherwise, I doubt this holds true when compared to european countries. I'd like to see the source for this statement.
- k-mcgrady 9y agoAre loans maybe very easy to access? So although you'll come out debt-ridden is the point that anyone can get the money for higher education?
- madeofpalk 9y agoElsewhere the government will just pay for university, or give you an interest-free loan.
- k-mcgrady 9y agoOh I know my point was, although US universities may be more expensive maybe that doesn't impact on access if loans (even if they aren't interest free) are easy to get.
- richmarr 9y agoWell it kinda does, Sutton Trust (an education charity in the UK) did a study that showed three quarters of graduates will still be repaying their student loans when they're in their 50s. From a policy perspective that kind of long term debt comes with stress, health problems, productivity problems, social mobility problems. Peoples ambition (and in some cases sense of entitlement) comes from their upbringing; if you add long term debt to that aswell you end up in a situation where even more careers are decided by childhood circumstance, rather than potential.
- gambiting 9y agoOn the other hand, my repayments of the UK Student loan are so small that I literally don't care. They are also always based on my income, so if I lose my job - no biggie. No one is going to come and chase me about it, there just won't be anything to pay until I get a job and make more than the current threshold. I don't see how this could be stressful even if I continue paying some small amount into my 50s - from my point of view it's not debt, it's more like paying a water bill each month.
- kushti 9y agoIsnt' it a piece of Russian propaganda ordered to be delivered by Putin himself?
- tjr225 9y agoThis shouldn't be surprising at all. As someone who lives in a primarily black, urban adjacent neighborhood (midtown Kansas City) for the last two years, I can't help but think that America is a place where our government prefers to help corporations and businesses over people. Here in KC we have public schools that have been de-credited, crumbling water and sewage infrastructure, and the bare minimum of public transportation. I say all this as someone who loves this country and whenever I go abroad I can't wait to get home...but there are times when I am driving through the ghetto that the thought of America as a first world country is laughable. Our government and our culture does a massive disservice to our people. Edit: While there is much more to the city than the eastside, here is a neat HBO documentary about the drugs & violence in eastside KC in the 90s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbt16OevZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wbt16OevZc
- devoply 9y agoWell historically America was more or less built like that. It's just that you need perspective to see it and many Americans simply don't have that. America was founded on the premise that the rich in America no longer to pay taxes to the hereditary rulers. They have always ruled and the corporations are simply their heirs. It's a way to separate their interests from their persons. The labor movements and the World Wars forced them to distribute their wealth. But it seems that we're going in the other direction again... and this time coupled with the fact that it's more difficult than ever for them to exercise their birth right, more profit. So they squeeze out the middle class. It's expected.
- usmeteora 9y agoand its only going to get worse as we veto visa the best and brightest from all over the world, reverse our status as a melting pot of immigration and believe that padding blue collar american workers with the forever promise of working manual labor in manufactoring jobs because people are entitled to have the same job forever because thats how progress works ^_^ over bringing in the best and brightest while simultaneously making higher education affordable for americans and bolstering our public school system which is one of the worst in the world, the quality of which is entirely dependent on the average income of the neighborhood your parents live in. The scariest part about having a reduced credit rating and falling into descent while having a sexist American for President is that most of the internal (I'm a United States citizen) banter I hear is the grumbling of Americans blaming our falling status on everyone else. We have horrible schools We are lazy on average in comparison to other higher educated European countries when it comes to educating ourselves We supposedly hate CNN/Fox news but people watch it. While I would not say the HN population is like this, the majority of suburban America is xenophobic even in the Northeast where people like to brag about being better than the South (I grew up in the deep South, went to college in NY and now live out West) The north and the south are still deeply divided and it reflects the long standing habit of thought in this country is that we are deeply divided and unwilling to accept blame for our actions. Our political system is a rock throwing party to see who is still alive and standing at the end. We are second-tier country. I'll be impressed to see if we are one by the end of my lifetime. The scapegoating along with the sense of entitlement so many Americans have along with the persistent ignorance and declaration that we are the best country in the world and that is a title that belongs to us forever while by every measurable metric we are not, borders along the narcissistic psychological disease of continual denial and mental evasion of the person who was voted to lead this country.
- duality 9y agoCountries like Japan and Korea rank highly in many metrics of advanced countries, yet have very restrictive immigration policies.
- usmeteora 9y agoIts true, their countries were not founded on being melting pots of immigrants. I am not denying that fact, but I am not sure how that correlation relates to the non existent correlation to America. I'm open to more explanation
- Loic 9y agoThe big problem with all these comparisons of countries is that you compare a 320 million people country (USA) with a less than 6 million people country (Denmark). It simply does not make sense, we should compare the USA with the complete EU.
- blisterpeanuts 9y agoThis is precisely the problem. They are comparing apples to watermelons. You can find a lot more social dysfunction in the U.S. with its huge population and marginalized minorities esp. African Americans, than in an ethnically uniform state like Denmark or Sweden. Interestingly however, the Scandinavian states, especially Sweden, are transforming rapidly because of enormous immigration. Gone are the clean, safe, stable, civilized societies of the 70s-80s. Now women worry about walking alone at night; their sexual assault rates are through the roof, much worse than most spots in the U.S. I wonder how the "Social Progress Imperative" fit this into their calculations.
- srrge 9y agoI'd like to see the reasoning behind this claim that one cannot compare smaller countries with bigger countries. A strong counter-argument would be economy of scale (in education, healthcare, defense...) for example.
- antisthenes 9y agoQuality education and healthcare do not have economies of scale, so countries should be easily comparable. It's unlikely that as a country grows, the optimal class size increases or that a doctor is somehow able to treat a patient nx times faster than in a smaller country. Doesn't make sense on the most basic level. Defense does...sort of, but the US DoD is such a unique and unprecedented beast in human history that it's hard to make hard conclusions about it with n=1. a caveat to healthcare is that medical R&D probably does have economies of scale, but not routine treatments and healthcare.
- bobbington 9y agoI think the biggest reason is that the USA is a melting pot from people all over the world. The culture clashes in this country are way bigger than you would see in such a small homogenous country as Denmark, or even Israel (which has socialized healthcare). When there is a uniform culture, it makes it much easier for people to cooperate. However when there are many different cultures, people naturally gravitate to what is familiar to them. That makes cooperation much harder.
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- hnthrwaway123 9y agoGod, reddit is leaking. I don't know if it is my imagination but the quality of the HN comments (irony of this comment fully appreciated) seem to have deteriorated massively over the past few months. The articles are still mostly relevant, and mostly tech, but they seem to be going downhill too. This place is meant to be a refuge from US politics and teenagers on a pedestal.
- smikhanov 9y agoThe list is questionable. UK above Austria, they cannot possibly be serious. Anybody who would make a trip from Vienna to Graz and, say, Aspang am Wechsel and then would make a similar trip between London, Birmingham and, say, Battle in East Sussex would see very, very, very different levels of social development is just about any regard.
- tilt_error 9y agoAmerica is a continent, nowhere near a country and definitely not only the United States of America. Why being picky? Because referring to, say, Europe as a unity is questionable and definitely is, were you to intend Scandinavia.