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From where did you derive this explanation? Truly capitavating. Very different perspective than what I've thought of, and I've spent a fair amount of time think

From where did you derive this explanation? Truly capitavating. Very different perspective than what I've thought of, and I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this exact thing

kbenson 9y ago
On the spot to express the point. The Matrix is just an easy go-to when referring to possible negative outcomes of the future with AI, and the point I'm trying to express is that as scary as it feels that people, not just jobs, may actually be automated out of existence, that doesn't necessarily have to be as bad as it may sound. I read a lot of science fiction of random quality and length[1], and there's enough of a scattershot of ideas that an expansive humanity and humans dying off are not entirely uncommon ideas, so I've had reason to think about it fairly often. While I understand a lot of people might be upset at the idea humanity dying off, being a father myself and the understanding that while I can't stick around to experience everything myself, part of what I am (in the *intellectual sense more importantly than the biological one) continues on in part through my children (one of which is not biological, but just as much a continuation in the same sense). That we might engineer our own obsolescence is scary, but so is the knowledge that we all die. Similar to in our individual lives, I find some comfort that in my old age I might be taken care of by my legacy. Also, using humans for batteries is stupid. There's plenty of better reasons possible and that have been put forth for that plot point. That's just low hanging fruit for nerds. ;) 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/ - If you don't know what this is and you like science fiction, you're in for a treat. Check the sidebar for quality classics.
- yamaneko 9y ago
  From some discussions I've seen, it seems that the human battery idea was introduced in the last minutes by executive meddling. The original idea by the Wachowskis was exactly what you described: a way of the machines protect themselves from humanity attacking them again, while also giving humanity a paradise as mercy and gratitude. It was never the machines' intention to rebel and attack the humans; they only attacked back as self-protection. The [Machine War][1] describes how it was in the early days. The conflict started when a robot killed its human masters because they were planning to destroy it and replace by a newer model. That started a Machine Civil Rights Movements, but humanity had become lazy and arrogant due to the new lifestyle yielded by the creation of AI. Most humans refused to acknowledge the robots and the few human sympathizers who did were silenced. It's a great read/watch (if you see the anime), but I better stop here so I don't spoil anything. After reading this, that has become my single concern about the future with AI: will humanity be able to treat and respect the machines as equals? PS: I was reading about it just this past weekend. Such a coincidence. This thread was from where I got most of it: https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4h9ghg/in_the_matrix_is_neo_a_machine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4h9ghg/in_the_matri... [1]: http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Machine_War http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Machine_War
  - kbenson 9y ago
    I think I've actually seen that, long ago, but I didn't recall it until you mentioned it (and still can only vaguely remember it). As I alluded to in my prior comment, the idea that the AI we create will be our equals, friends and comrades has plenty of precedent and fiction of its own. I in no way claim ownership or mean to imply it's an entirely original thought. ;) That said, thanks for the reminder. I had completely forgotten about the Animatrix (which IIRC is what you are referring to).
    - yamaneko 9y ago
      Of course! I thought you were alluding to these ideas. And you could either come up to these conclusions by your own or through any other material. I hope my comment didn't look like I was calling you out about these ideas. I was just excited at this coincidence and wanted to share it. They went completely unnoticed to me from watching just the movies. Makes them even better (including the sequels :P).
  - hosh 9y ago
    Yup. I've been thinking about that for a long time too -- ever since reading Asimov's books on the Laws of Robotics as an angsty teen. I hated the premise and thought about whether our ideals about instrinsic rights extend to non-human sentience, even if we were its creators. I'm not an angsty teen anymore, so I don't know if I'd still feel derisive about Asimov's robot stories. However, seeing as how we as humans have difficulty treating other humans as humans, I'm not seeing much hope for treating non-human sentience with respect. If our creations rise against us, it will be because we made them in our image, and that includes both dreams and nightmares buried in our collective psyche.
  - jgh 9y ago
    >From some discussions I've seen, it seems that the human battery idea was introduced in the last minutes by executive meddling. The original idea by the Wachowskis was exactly what you described: a way of the machines protect themselves from humanity attacking them again, while also giving humanity a paradise as mercy and gratitude. Amazing bit of irony if that's the case!
Already__Taken 9y ago
It's kind of in the animatrix if you listen and think about it. It's not super obvious though.

From where did you derive this explanation? Truly capitavating. Very different perspective than what I've thought of, and I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this exact thing

kbenson 9y ago

On the spot to express the point. The Matrix is just an easy go-to when referring to possible negative outcomes of the future with AI, and the point I'm trying to express is that as scary as it feels that people, not just jobs, may actually be automated out of existence, that doesn't necessarily have to be as bad as it may sound. I read a lot of science fiction of random quality and length[1], and there's enough of a scattershot of ideas that an expansive humanity and humans dying off are not entirely uncommon ideas, so I've had reason to think about it fairly often. While I understand a lot of people might be upset at the idea humanity dying off, being a father myself and the understanding that while I can't stick around to experience everything myself, part of what I am (in the *intellectual sense more importantly than the biological one) continues on in part through my children (one of which is not biological, but just as much a continuation in the same sense). That we might engineer our own obsolescence is scary, but so is the knowledge that we all die. Similar to in our individual lives, I find some comfort that in my old age I might be taken care of by my legacy. Also, using humans for batteries is stupid. There's plenty of better reasons possible and that have been put forth for that plot point. That's just low hanging fruit for nerds. ;) 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/ - If you don't know what this is and you like science fiction, you're in for a treat. Check the sidebar for quality classics.

yamaneko 9y ago
From some discussions I've seen, it seems that the human battery idea was introduced in the last minutes by executive meddling. The original idea by the Wachowskis was exactly what you described: a way of the machines protect themselves from humanity attacking them again, while also giving humanity a paradise as mercy and gratitude. It was never the machines' intention to rebel and attack the humans; they only attacked back as self-protection. The [Machine War][1] describes how it was in the early days. The conflict started when a robot killed its human masters because they were planning to destroy it and replace by a newer model. That started a Machine Civil Rights Movements, but humanity had become lazy and arrogant due to the new lifestyle yielded by the creation of AI. Most humans refused to acknowledge the robots and the few human sympathizers who did were silenced. It's a great read/watch (if you see the anime), but I better stop here so I don't spoil anything. After reading this, that has become my single concern about the future with AI: will humanity be able to treat and respect the machines as equals? PS: I was reading about it just this past weekend. Such a coincidence. This thread was from where I got most of it: https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4h9ghg/in_the_matrix_is_neo_a_machine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4h9ghg/in_the_matri... [1]: http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Machine_War http://matrix.wikia.com/wiki/Machine_War
- kbenson 9y ago
  I think I've actually seen that, long ago, but I didn't recall it until you mentioned it (and still can only vaguely remember it). As I alluded to in my prior comment, the idea that the AI we create will be our equals, friends and comrades has plenty of precedent and fiction of its own. I in no way claim ownership or mean to imply it's an entirely original thought. ;) That said, thanks for the reminder. I had completely forgotten about the Animatrix (which IIRC is what you are referring to).
  - yamaneko 9y ago
    Of course! I thought you were alluding to these ideas. And you could either come up to these conclusions by your own or through any other material. I hope my comment didn't look like I was calling you out about these ideas. I was just excited at this coincidence and wanted to share it. They went completely unnoticed to me from watching just the movies. Makes them even better (including the sequels :P).
- hosh 9y ago
  Yup. I've been thinking about that for a long time too -- ever since reading Asimov's books on the Laws of Robotics as an angsty teen. I hated the premise and thought about whether our ideals about instrinsic rights extend to non-human sentience, even if we were its creators. I'm not an angsty teen anymore, so I don't know if I'd still feel derisive about Asimov's robot stories. However, seeing as how we as humans have difficulty treating other humans as humans, I'm not seeing much hope for treating non-human sentience with respect. If our creations rise against us, it will be because we made them in our image, and that includes both dreams and nightmares buried in our collective psyche.
- jgh 9y ago
  >From some discussions I've seen, it seems that the human battery idea was introduced in the last minutes by executive meddling. The original idea by the Wachowskis was exactly what you described: a way of the machines protect themselves from humanity attacking them again, while also giving humanity a paradise as mercy and gratitude. Amazing bit of irony if that's the case!

Already__Taken 9y ago

It's kind of in the animatrix if you listen and think about it. It's not super obvious though.