5 ms·

> I'm 100% in favor of increasing all immigration to the USA Why? What's wrong with the current level?

atomi 9y ago
China is of comparable size to the US and has a population of nearly 1.4 billion people. We need the best here if we plan on staying a global superpower. It's incredible what is happening. It's like watching a slow moving train wreck and there is nothing we can do to stop it. :/
- 4msonny 9y ago
  We do not necessarily need the best to "come" here from somewhere else, we just need to (again) invest in our own children (like China?) to make sure we remain the best and the most powerful.
- hyperdunc 9y ago
  When so many people live in one country, the value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible. Do you think very high population density is more or less healthy for the individual? What about the effect on the environment? What happens once the US has 1.4 billion people and global birth rates have stabilized so there is no one else to bring in? Maintaining economic growth may be important but it is only one consideration. Bringing in the best foreign workers is a somewhat easy and temporary fix, which dissuades the US from investing in its own citizens. How many citizens who are down and out would actually be able to contribute a whole lot more? Is the onus solely on them to compete with already educated foreigners? It would be more less selfish and more sustainable to concentrate on nurturing a national culture of intellect, learning, creativity, entrepreneurship and cohesion within the US rather than supplementing our deficiencies with the best of other countries.
  - noway421 9y ago
    > value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible Usually negligible because we have data only for developing countries. There's still no case of a developed nation with 1b+ population.
- rayiner 9y ago
  If I'm looking around the world, is China what I want the US to be more like? It seems like the happiest countries are much smaller places like Sweden and Denmark.
  - pcwalton 9y ago
    Both of which are members of the EU and have no plans to pull a Brexit anytime soon (indeed, populism in Europe sputtered quickly and now seems to be on the wane). As examples of the benefits of protectionism/isolationism, Sweden and Denmark are muddled.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      Populism in Europe is just getting started. The far right party in the Netherlands gained 8 seats in parliament (to 20) while the leading party lost 7 seats (to 33). It's already had the effect of pushing the mainstream parties to the right even in the face of recent election losses. Both Denmark and Sweden have enacted immigration restrictions in the last year. Perhaps the biggest change is that any chance of a Turkey joining the EU is dead. That seemed like a real possibility 5-8 years ago.
      - pcwalton 9y ago
        > Populism in Europe is just getting started. I've never seen any observer come to that conclusion lately (other than those with transparent agendas). For an overall take considering all the data, not just one or two data points, consider Nate Silver's: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-making-europe-liberal-again/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-making-... > Perhaps the biggest change is that any chance of a Turkey joining the EU is dead. That seemed like a real possibility 5-8 years ago. Erdogan's authoritarianism is a bit of a confounding factor here.
  - lovehashbrowns 9y ago
    It's definitely not to be more like China. I like the concept of being a more idealized 1950's-style superpower. Far less sexism and racism, while leading the world in science, technology, and culture. The most practical way of achieving that is by taking the best people from other countries and bringing them here into the U.S. I think it's possible to be a superpower and maintain America's identity while also having the population be as happy as that of Sweden's. That's how I view(ed) the country heading during the 2008-2016 years. Maybe I'm naive but I was seeing a lot of social issues change for the better. We were working towards gay rights. There were discussions around discrimination and racism. We were also bringing a lot more attention to the healthcare issues we have here. There's a trend around being healthy and educated. There was even talk about wages, work/life balance, and the cost of living. I figured things would improve as these discussions began to get louder and take up more of the country's focus. My views are starting to get a lot more cynical nowadays. I wouldn't mind if the U.S. just turtled and gave up on the dream of being the best. Is it silly to want to be the best country on Earth? Do people from outside the U.S. share that same mentality or is it just some culturally-imposed ideal that the U.S. has?
- omginternets 9y ago
  This whole comment is a huge non sequitur. 1. China is of comparable size to the US and has a population of nearly 1.4 billion people [ OK ] 2. Wee need the best here if we plan on staying a global superpower [ Huh? What does this have to do with territory size and population? ] 3. It's like watching a slow moving train wreck and there is nothing we can do to stop it. :/ [ How does this follow from any of the above ? ] To make an actual point, China is vastly over-populated, to the point that it had to take draconian popuation-control measures. The result of those measures is now that each generation must care for itself and the previous generations, each of which are roughly twice as populous. China is a slow-moving train wreck that can't be stopped...
  - atomi 9y ago
    It's clear enough. You're comment seems to be the only one confused about the point I make. We have some wiggle room in terms of population capacity - it's not that difficult a concept.
UncleMeat 9y ago
The quotas are insane. It artificially hurts people from populous countries, making it basically impossible to immigrate to the US from india even if you are highly educated without H1B, which is itself a random system.
- cakedoggie 9y ago
  This is bad for those people, but not necessarily bad for the US. India and China really need to get a handle on their burgeoning population.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    China has, through quite brutal means. It's population will decline over the next 50 years.
marcell 9y ago
If you're American: 1. People contribute to the economy. More people means the economy grows faster. 2. Lots of people would come to USA if it was easier for them to do so. Of course if you are China or other USA competitor, you want low USA immigration, so that people stay in your country, and grow your economy instead.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  1. So are you in favor of unrestricted immigration? 2. Yes but that doesn't answer any questions.
  - marcell 9y ago
    1. Within reason, yea pretty much. If we had sane government, I'd be in favor of, say, 10x increases on all types of immigration over the next 10 years. This means hi tech workers, low tech workers, families of current immigrants, amnesty for illegal immigrants, everything. The economy will adapt, and we'll find a way to make use for them. 2. Hopefully (1) does
    - Banthum 9y ago
      Okay, I'm not taking the piss - let me ask you an honest question. 10 years of 10x immigration would be 100,000,000 people, so about 11 cities the size of New York of 100% new immigrants. Such masses could not possibly assimilate to any significant degree; they'd obviously form huge enclaves. Presumably you'd want to live amongst them, and you would not preferentially move to a neighborhood of people with your culture and upbringing and language. Fair enough. My question is, instead of bringing them to America, why don't you just go to them? You could move to Brazil. Or India. These places are incredibly diverse. You could do it this year and you'd have your desired result immediately. You're obviously not attached to anything about American people or culture, so what keeps you here?
      - j_koreth 9y ago
        What makes Indians or Brazilians special in that they can't eventually integrate as is the case with previous waves or Irish and Eastern European immigrants? Surely if American culture is so fragile that immigration would break it then it would have happened already.

China is of comparable size to the US and has a population of nearly 1.4 billion people. We need the best here if we plan on staying a global superpower. It's incredible what is happening. It's like watching a slow moving train wreck and there is nothing we can do to stop it. :/

4msonny 9y ago
We do not necessarily need the best to "come" here from somewhere else, we just need to (again) invest in our own children (like China?) to make sure we remain the best and the most powerful.
hyperdunc 9y ago
When so many people live in one country, the value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible. Do you think very high population density is more or less healthy for the individual? What about the effect on the environment? What happens once the US has 1.4 billion people and global birth rates have stabilized so there is no one else to bring in? Maintaining economic growth may be important but it is only one consideration. Bringing in the best foreign workers is a somewhat easy and temporary fix, which dissuades the US from investing in its own citizens. How many citizens who are down and out would actually be able to contribute a whole lot more? Is the onus solely on them to compete with already educated foreigners? It would be more less selfish and more sustainable to concentrate on nurturing a national culture of intellect, learning, creativity, entrepreneurship and cohesion within the US rather than supplementing our deficiencies with the best of other countries.
- noway421 9y ago
  > value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible Usually negligible because we have data only for developing countries. There's still no case of a developed nation with 1b+ population.
rayiner 9y ago
If I'm looking around the world, is China what I want the US to be more like? It seems like the happiest countries are much smaller places like Sweden and Denmark.
- pcwalton 9y ago
  Both of which are members of the EU and have no plans to pull a Brexit anytime soon (indeed, populism in Europe sputtered quickly and now seems to be on the wane). As examples of the benefits of protectionism/isolationism, Sweden and Denmark are muddled.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Populism in Europe is just getting started. The far right party in the Netherlands gained 8 seats in parliament (to 20) while the leading party lost 7 seats (to 33). It's already had the effect of pushing the mainstream parties to the right even in the face of recent election losses. Both Denmark and Sweden have enacted immigration restrictions in the last year. Perhaps the biggest change is that any chance of a Turkey joining the EU is dead. That seemed like a real possibility 5-8 years ago.
    - pcwalton 9y ago
      > Populism in Europe is just getting started. I've never seen any observer come to that conclusion lately (other than those with transparent agendas). For an overall take considering all the data, not just one or two data points, consider Nate Silver's: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-making-europe-liberal-again/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trump-is-making-... > Perhaps the biggest change is that any chance of a Turkey joining the EU is dead. That seemed like a real possibility 5-8 years ago. Erdogan's authoritarianism is a bit of a confounding factor here.
- lovehashbrowns 9y ago
  It's definitely not to be more like China. I like the concept of being a more idealized 1950's-style superpower. Far less sexism and racism, while leading the world in science, technology, and culture. The most practical way of achieving that is by taking the best people from other countries and bringing them here into the U.S. I think it's possible to be a superpower and maintain America's identity while also having the population be as happy as that of Sweden's. That's how I view(ed) the country heading during the 2008-2016 years. Maybe I'm naive but I was seeing a lot of social issues change for the better. We were working towards gay rights. There were discussions around discrimination and racism. We were also bringing a lot more attention to the healthcare issues we have here. There's a trend around being healthy and educated. There was even talk about wages, work/life balance, and the cost of living. I figured things would improve as these discussions began to get louder and take up more of the country's focus. My views are starting to get a lot more cynical nowadays. I wouldn't mind if the U.S. just turtled and gave up on the dream of being the best. Is it silly to want to be the best country on Earth? Do people from outside the U.S. share that same mentality or is it just some culturally-imposed ideal that the U.S. has?
omginternets 9y ago
This whole comment is a huge non sequitur. 1. China is of comparable size to the US and has a population of nearly 1.4 billion people [ OK ] 2. Wee need the best here if we plan on staying a global superpower [ Huh? What does this have to do with territory size and population? ] 3. It's like watching a slow moving train wreck and there is nothing we can do to stop it. :/ [ How does this follow from any of the above ? ] To make an actual point, China is vastly over-populated, to the point that it had to take draconian popuation-control measures. The result of those measures is now that each generation must care for itself and the previous generations, each of which are roughly twice as populous. China is a slow-moving train wreck that can't be stopped...
- atomi 9y ago
  It's clear enough. You're comment seems to be the only one confused about the point I make. We have some wiggle room in terms of population capacity - it's not that difficult a concept.

UncleMeat 9y ago

The quotas are insane. It artificially hurts people from populous countries, making it basically impossible to immigrate to the US from india even if you are highly educated without H1B, which is itself a random system.

cakedoggie 9y ago
This is bad for those people, but not necessarily bad for the US. India and China really need to get a handle on their burgeoning population.
- rayiner 9y ago
  China has, through quite brutal means. It's population will decline over the next 50 years.

marcell 9y ago

If you're American: 1. People contribute to the economy. More people means the economy grows faster. 2. Lots of people would come to USA if it was easier for them to do so. Of course if you are China or other USA competitor, you want low USA immigration, so that people stay in your country, and grow your economy instead.

muninn_ 9y ago
1. So are you in favor of unrestricted immigration? 2. Yes but that doesn't answer any questions.
- marcell 9y ago
  1. Within reason, yea pretty much. If we had sane government, I'd be in favor of, say, 10x increases on all types of immigration over the next 10 years. This means hi tech workers, low tech workers, families of current immigrants, amnesty for illegal immigrants, everything. The economy will adapt, and we'll find a way to make use for them. 2. Hopefully (1) does
  - Banthum 9y ago
    Okay, I'm not taking the piss - let me ask you an honest question. 10 years of 10x immigration would be 100,000,000 people, so about 11 cities the size of New York of 100% new immigrants. Such masses could not possibly assimilate to any significant degree; they'd obviously form huge enclaves. Presumably you'd want to live amongst them, and you would not preferentially move to a neighborhood of people with your culture and upbringing and language. Fair enough. My question is, instead of bringing them to America, why don't you just go to them? You could move to Brazil. Or India. These places are incredibly diverse. You could do it this year and you'd have your desired result immediately. You're obviously not attached to anything about American people or culture, so what keeps you here?
    - j_koreth 9y ago
      What makes Indians or Brazilians special in that they can't eventually integrate as is the case with previous waves or Irish and Eastern European immigrants? Surely if American culture is so fragile that immigration would break it then it would have happened already.