5 ms·

Vancouver, anyone? I live in Seattle and I'm about ready to drive two hours north for my next startup. To hire the Russian programmers I'm already working with

Vancouver, anyone? I live in Seattle and I'm about ready to drive two hours north for my next startup. To hire the Russian programmers I'm already working with, or the folks on Kaggle I'd love to hire. The US has a completely broken scheme for visas.

drspacemonkey 9y ago
That's just trading one problem for another. Vancouver has a very serious affordability problem. Not only are you going to be paying a lot more for office and living space, you're going to have far fewer opportunities for funding.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- startupdiscuss 9y ago
  I wonder if there is an arbitrage opportunity: invest in real estate and office space north of Seattle and south of Vancouver, just over the border. Those who can go back and forth and take meetings on both sides. People are within commuting distance of these large metro areas.
  - drspacemonkey 9y ago
    Real estate on the Washington side of the border is insanely cheaper. As soon as you cross the border, prices skyrocket and just keep going up until you hit downtown Vancouver. Seriously, our affordability problem is pretty much at crisis levels. People who argue that we should increase density aren't wrong, but we're already building towers as fast as we can. And the majority of those suffer from substandard, shoddy construction. We call it 'leaky condo syndrome'. And even those are selling for $750k+ for under 500sqft.
    - paulsutter 9y ago
      Vancouver is a wonderful city so I can really understand why you want to keep everyone from finding out :) But go see San Francisco if you want to understand an affordability crisis. Vancouver is reasonable in comparison.
      - drspacemonkey 9y ago
        Yes, the cost of living in San Francisco is about twice that of Vancouver. But salaries in Vancouver less than half that of San Francisco, so affordability is worse overall. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE a stronger tech sector here (especially as a developer). We desperately need an industry other than real estate and film. But I just don't see how that can happen without a fundamental shift that just isn't happening anytime soon.
    - teacup50 9y ago
      Indeed; look how well that's worked for Manhattan. /s Realistically, density doesn't seem to ever drive down housing prices in the long term. All it does is increase the value of land tremendously, and thus push local home ownership out of reach of everyone but the ultra-wealthy.
      - ericd 9y ago
        I think that cause and effect might be backwards - people only ever lay out the large upfront expense to build density when the land becomes valuable enough. And that only happens when people are clamoring to live in the same area. If you then refuse to build up, it makes the affordability much, much worse.
        teacup50 9y ago
        > If you then refuse to build up, it makes the affordability much, much worse. How? If you've balanced jobs/wages against housing supply via standard planning practices, then you should be able to tweak demand. If demand is still high, density just drives prices higher, and shifts the entire housing economy to a rent-seeking one. Furthermore, the real-estate market is global, but the housing market is local. My parents own homes in another state that they've never even seen, and merely rent out via a property management company. As land prices get driven up through density, how do people participating in the local housing market compete with those in the real estate market?
    - geoka9 9y ago
      > just keep going up until you hit downtown Vancouver And it doesn't stop there. West Van is one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Canada.
  - mattm 9y ago
    It's a 3 hour drive from Seattle-Vancouver so even if you're halfway that's a 1.5 hour commute.
- elchief 9y ago
  Still cheaper than SF Here's an analysis of residential rental prices: http://quantitativerhetoric.com/monthly-rental-report-may-2017.html http://quantitativerhetoric.com/monthly-rental-report-may-20...
  - matt_wulfeck 9y ago
    Yes but at least the local economy in SF can support absurd housing prices. Unless you plan on making or paying much higher than average salaries in Vancouver it's going to be very different attracting talent there.
    - elchief 9y ago
      Well if you can't get a US visa your wage there is zero, so I'm not seeing your point
- notyourwork 9y ago
  Is Vancouver more expensive than Seattle?
  - drspacemonkey 9y ago
    Yep. This video tour takes you through a $980k USD condo in downtown Vancouver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j3SChqp51Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j3SChqp51Y Please note that the shoddy construction is not an outlier, it's normal in Vancouver. Whereas this much nicer condo in downtown Seattle a 5 minute walk from Pike Place Market is a relative bargain at $810k USD: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1519-3rd-Ave-APT-204-Seattle-WA-98101/48810134_zpid/?fullpage=true https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1519-3rd-Ave-APT-204-Seat...
johncolanduoni 9y ago
Last time I checked, Canada is still much stricter when it comes to work visas than the US, though I suppose much less of their capacity is getting eaten up by Infosys-like operations.
- paulsutter 9y ago
  It depends on the work category, salary level, and the province. Canada is making a real effort to lead in AI and that helps.
- startupdiscuss 9y ago
  I keep hearing the opposite. When was the last time you checked (no sarcasm), and how did you check?
  - johncolanduoni 9y ago
    Around the US election, by asking a Canadian friend (I'm technically a citizen, but by birth and have only been there a handful of times). He said work visas were harder to get but that other visas were much easier, and that obtaining permanent residency was almost a shoo-in once you had a visa for a few years.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    You're hearing the opposite from people who are trying hard to be negative about the Trump presidency, instead of thinking for themselves. We typically require people to prove that the job they're going to do can not be feasibly offered to a citizen. Typically exemptions can apply if you're applying for a work visa for a transfer within a multinational company, and for a small number of other more niche roles. In order to be exempt as a professional you need to be a citizen of Mexico or the U.S. and provably belong to a profession which is specifically exempted (there are a bit over 60) according to a list.
- spitfire 9y ago
  I know MIT grad lisp hacker types who couldn't pass the entrance points requirements. The trick is you have to learn French. No matter what - Learn French.
spitfire 9y ago
Victoria is nice and much cheaper. If you're actually building a business (rather than a get-rich-quick startup) people will welcome you with open arms. You'll find good QOL and great livability here. Though we are just starting to get traffic problems.
4msonny 9y ago
why bring them programmers here, why not move yourself to russia and do your startup there...

drspacemonkey 9y ago

That's just trading one problem for another. Vancouver has a very serious affordability problem. Not only are you going to be paying a lot more for office and living space, you're going to have far fewer opportunities for funding.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
startupdiscuss 9y ago
I wonder if there is an arbitrage opportunity: invest in real estate and office space north of Seattle and south of Vancouver, just over the border. Those who can go back and forth and take meetings on both sides. People are within commuting distance of these large metro areas.
- drspacemonkey 9y ago
  Real estate on the Washington side of the border is insanely cheaper. As soon as you cross the border, prices skyrocket and just keep going up until you hit downtown Vancouver. Seriously, our affordability problem is pretty much at crisis levels. People who argue that we should increase density aren't wrong, but we're already building towers as fast as we can. And the majority of those suffer from substandard, shoddy construction. We call it 'leaky condo syndrome'. And even those are selling for $750k+ for under 500sqft.
  - paulsutter 9y ago
    Vancouver is a wonderful city so I can really understand why you want to keep everyone from finding out :) But go see San Francisco if you want to understand an affordability crisis. Vancouver is reasonable in comparison.
    - drspacemonkey 9y ago
      Yes, the cost of living in San Francisco is about twice that of Vancouver. But salaries in Vancouver less than half that of San Francisco, so affordability is worse overall. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE a stronger tech sector here (especially as a developer). We desperately need an industry other than real estate and film. But I just don't see how that can happen without a fundamental shift that just isn't happening anytime soon.
  - teacup50 9y ago
    Indeed; look how well that's worked for Manhattan. /s Realistically, density doesn't seem to ever drive down housing prices in the long term. All it does is increase the value of land tremendously, and thus push local home ownership out of reach of everyone but the ultra-wealthy.
    - ericd 9y ago
      I think that cause and effect might be backwards - people only ever lay out the large upfront expense to build density when the land becomes valuable enough. And that only happens when people are clamoring to live in the same area. If you then refuse to build up, it makes the affordability much, much worse.
      - teacup50 9y ago
        > If you then refuse to build up, it makes the affordability much, much worse. How? If you've balanced jobs/wages against housing supply via standard planning practices, then you should be able to tweak demand. If demand is still high, density just drives prices higher, and shifts the entire housing economy to a rent-seeking one. Furthermore, the real-estate market is global, but the housing market is local. My parents own homes in another state that they've never even seen, and merely rent out via a property management company. As land prices get driven up through density, how do people participating in the local housing market compete with those in the real estate market?
  - geoka9 9y ago
    > just keep going up until you hit downtown Vancouver And it doesn't stop there. West Van is one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Canada.
- mattm 9y ago
  It's a 3 hour drive from Seattle-Vancouver so even if you're halfway that's a 1.5 hour commute.
elchief 9y ago
Still cheaper than SF Here's an analysis of residential rental prices: http://quantitativerhetoric.com/monthly-rental-report-may-2017.html http://quantitativerhetoric.com/monthly-rental-report-may-20...
- matt_wulfeck 9y ago
  Yes but at least the local economy in SF can support absurd housing prices. Unless you plan on making or paying much higher than average salaries in Vancouver it's going to be very different attracting talent there.
  - elchief 9y ago
    Well if you can't get a US visa your wage there is zero, so I'm not seeing your point
notyourwork 9y ago
Is Vancouver more expensive than Seattle?
- drspacemonkey 9y ago
  Yep. This video tour takes you through a $980k USD condo in downtown Vancouver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j3SChqp51Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j3SChqp51Y Please note that the shoddy construction is not an outlier, it's normal in Vancouver. Whereas this much nicer condo in downtown Seattle a 5 minute walk from Pike Place Market is a relative bargain at $810k USD: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1519-3rd-Ave-APT-204-Seattle-WA-98101/48810134_zpid/?fullpage=true https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1519-3rd-Ave-APT-204-Seat...

johncolanduoni 9y ago

Last time I checked, Canada is still much stricter when it comes to work visas than the US, though I suppose much less of their capacity is getting eaten up by Infosys-like operations.

paulsutter 9y ago
It depends on the work category, salary level, and the province. Canada is making a real effort to lead in AI and that helps.
startupdiscuss 9y ago
I keep hearing the opposite. When was the last time you checked (no sarcasm), and how did you check?
- johncolanduoni 9y ago
  Around the US election, by asking a Canadian friend (I'm technically a citizen, but by birth and have only been there a handful of times). He said work visas were harder to get but that other visas were much easier, and that obtaining permanent residency was almost a shoo-in once you had a visa for a few years.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  You're hearing the opposite from people who are trying hard to be negative about the Trump presidency, instead of thinking for themselves. We typically require people to prove that the job they're going to do can not be feasibly offered to a citizen. Typically exemptions can apply if you're applying for a work visa for a transfer within a multinational company, and for a small number of other more niche roles. In order to be exempt as a professional you need to be a citizen of Mexico or the U.S. and provably belong to a profession which is specifically exempted (there are a bit over 60) according to a list.
spitfire 9y ago
I know MIT grad lisp hacker types who couldn't pass the entrance points requirements. The trick is you have to learn French. No matter what - Learn French.

spitfire 9y ago

Victoria is nice and much cheaper. If you're actually building a business (rather than a get-rich-quick startup) people will welcome you with open arms. You'll find good QOL and great livability here. Though we are just starting to get traffic problems.

4msonny 9y ago

why bring them programmers here, why not move yourself to russia and do your startup there...