8 ms·

You're right but your overall argument is wrong for different reasons. Earning a lot of money is a good proxy for contributing to society, except not everyone

You're right but your overall argument is wrong for different reasons. Earning a lot of money is a good proxy for contributing to society, except not everyone makes good money all the time. I'm an immigrant and if you were to judge me based on my first few years in America, then clearly you shouldn't let me in to America. Now, at a later stage in my life, I would qualify for "startup visa" but if I wasn't already living in America for past 10 years, then I might not wanna come here (might not even be eligible for this visa to be fare).

soldierofhayley 9y ago
I actually completely agree, which is why I am a big fan of IQ testing for immigrants.
- gnaritas 9y ago
  How disgusting.
  - soldierofhayley 9y ago
    Care to elaborate? As a patriot I think it is more disgusting to have no consideration for my fellow countrymen.
    - andrepd 9y ago
      How on earth does "IQ testing" and "consideration to fellow countrymen" even relate? I cannot fathom the connection.
      - soldierofhayley 9y ago
        Who do you think pays for the unintelligent people in the welfare society the left envisions? Additionally I do find it rather amusing the left complains that the only reason they don’t win is because of stupid people, and then insists on bringing in the least intelligent immigrants possible, something doesn’t quite add up.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Additionally I do find it rather amusing the left complains that the only reason they don’t win is because of stupid people "The left" doesn't do that, a small minority of the people on the left do. > and then insists on bringing in the least intelligent immigrants possible Even fewer (like zero) people on the left advocate specifically for “bringing in the least intelligent immigrants possible.”
        HalteMich 9y ago
        True. It's the right that sees "liberals" as stupid. The other side sees "conservatives" as "evil". Pick your religious fanaticism wisely.
        gnaritas 9y ago
        The "left" is not a single person with a single position, by treating it as such, you're sealing yourself into a personal delusion about others that might make you feel good, but simply isn't accurate. And using derogatory terms like "welfare society" merely shows your own political bias. You know why the "left" confuses you, it's because you don't actually bother to try and understand them; you're happy simply mis-characterizing them in this cartoon'ish manner.
        HalteMich 9y ago
        The "right" has simply given up. Look at how the media portrays anyone with "traditional values". Turn on any HBO show to get a glimpse of the condescension (True Detective??). Attempts to shut down Chick-fil-A in various states. Courts that overturn propositions despite widespread support amongst voters even in the most liberal of states. Violent attacks at universities against non-liberal academics and speakers. I've watched American politics for years. There have never been any olive branches extended by the left. And even when the republicans own congress they somehow have to cede control to the democrat (see Obama years for reference). If one were to criticize Obama for his horrendous Middle East policies or his unwillingness to fire AG Eric Holder, s/he would be called racist, bigot, homophobe etc etc etc. Anyone that is on the "right" has essentially checked out now. Good luck getting them back. Also, the left is just about as good as one person. How could so many people with disparate views that are often in conflict vote as a unified block with such great ease?
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      > Care to elaborate? Sure, IQ is not a valid measure of a human being, certainly not one with which to decide to exclude those seeking a home. > As a patriot Equally disgusting, patriotism is just another form of tribalism and bigotry. Patriotism, aka nationalism, isn't a thing to be proud of, it's a thing that causes hate and conflict in the world. You don't choose the country of your birth, it isn't an accomplishment to be proud of, you had nothing to do with it.
- thebooktocome 9y ago
  May your descendants regress to the mean.
- andrepd 9y ago
  >IQ testing Excuse me for saying, but this alone suffices to reveal your character. IQ is an unscientific measure, full of holes, doesn't correlate in any meaningful way to success, let alone worth to society. IQ testing, really? Not success, not merit, not services to society, f*cking IQ testing. I mean, I take it you would rather have a 170 IQ shut-in doing nothing productive with his talents than a hardworking labourer or a celebrated NGO founder in your country? I would venture further. If I had to wager I would say you got praised a lot for being smart when you were a child, maybe even got a good score in IQ testing at some point in your life. It skewed your view of things and now you reduce everything to that. But maybe I'm wrong.
  - soldierofhayley 9y ago
    "In the normal population, g and IQ are roughly 90% correlated and are often used interchangeably." Sorry the science doesn't agree with what you think it should be, I will be sure to let the scientists know. https://www.iq-tests.eu/iq-test-IQ-and-general-intelligence-factor-300.html https://www.iq-tests.eu/iq-test-IQ-and-general-intelligence-...
    - andrepd 9y ago
      I literally have no idea what your point with that quote is. Anyway, Wikipedia has a good overview of the main gripes with IQ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Criticism_and_views https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Criticis...
      - thebooktocome 9y ago
        Looks like grandparent could use a copy of Vigen's _Spurious Correlations_: https://www.amazon.com/Spurious-Correlations-Tyler-Vigen/dp/0316339431 https://www.amazon.com/Spurious-Correlations-Tyler-Vigen/dp/... I think it'd make a lovely coffee table book.
- bildung 9y ago
  I guess people object to your post for moral reasons, but your position is also factually indefensible. * First, intelligence is mostly cultural, not genetic. I know that's not a popular view in the US, but it's true nonetheless. There are multiple adoption studies that show how intelligence of kids rise as much as 20 points on the IQ scale, once they have a nurturing social environment. It's also pretty obvious once you think about the fact that european immigrants in the US were almost all analphabetic subsitance farmers, yet nowadays descendents of those people design neural nets and self driving cars. * Intelligence (the difference between g and IQ is irrelevant, as both are pretty much defined by the same thing: an intelligence test) is not a good predictor for future work performance. Other personality traits like conscientiousness and neuroticism are, in combination, more important. * Despite decades of research, there still are no language independent intelligence tests of comparable reliability to the language-dependent variants, so the actual measuring is not possible.

soldierofhayley 9y ago

I actually completely agree, which is why I am a big fan of IQ testing for immigrants.

gnaritas 9y ago
How disgusting.
- soldierofhayley 9y ago
  Care to elaborate? As a patriot I think it is more disgusting to have no consideration for my fellow countrymen.
  - andrepd 9y ago
    How on earth does "IQ testing" and "consideration to fellow countrymen" even relate? I cannot fathom the connection.
    - soldierofhayley 9y ago
      Who do you think pays for the unintelligent people in the welfare society the left envisions? Additionally I do find it rather amusing the left complains that the only reason they don’t win is because of stupid people, and then insists on bringing in the least intelligent immigrants possible, something doesn’t quite add up.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Additionally I do find it rather amusing the left complains that the only reason they don’t win is because of stupid people "The left" doesn't do that, a small minority of the people on the left do. > and then insists on bringing in the least intelligent immigrants possible Even fewer (like zero) people on the left advocate specifically for “bringing in the least intelligent immigrants possible.”
        HalteMich 9y ago
        True. It's the right that sees "liberals" as stupid. The other side sees "conservatives" as "evil". Pick your religious fanaticism wisely.
      - gnaritas 9y ago
        The "left" is not a single person with a single position, by treating it as such, you're sealing yourself into a personal delusion about others that might make you feel good, but simply isn't accurate. And using derogatory terms like "welfare society" merely shows your own political bias. You know why the "left" confuses you, it's because you don't actually bother to try and understand them; you're happy simply mis-characterizing them in this cartoon'ish manner.
        HalteMich 9y ago
        The "right" has simply given up. Look at how the media portrays anyone with "traditional values". Turn on any HBO show to get a glimpse of the condescension (True Detective??). Attempts to shut down Chick-fil-A in various states. Courts that overturn propositions despite widespread support amongst voters even in the most liberal of states. Violent attacks at universities against non-liberal academics and speakers. I've watched American politics for years. There have never been any olive branches extended by the left. And even when the republicans own congress they somehow have to cede control to the democrat (see Obama years for reference). If one were to criticize Obama for his horrendous Middle East policies or his unwillingness to fire AG Eric Holder, s/he would be called racist, bigot, homophobe etc etc etc. Anyone that is on the "right" has essentially checked out now. Good luck getting them back. Also, the left is just about as good as one person. How could so many people with disparate views that are often in conflict vote as a unified block with such great ease?
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    > Care to elaborate? Sure, IQ is not a valid measure of a human being, certainly not one with which to decide to exclude those seeking a home. > As a patriot Equally disgusting, patriotism is just another form of tribalism and bigotry. Patriotism, aka nationalism, isn't a thing to be proud of, it's a thing that causes hate and conflict in the world. You don't choose the country of your birth, it isn't an accomplishment to be proud of, you had nothing to do with it.
thebooktocome 9y ago
May your descendants regress to the mean.
andrepd 9y ago
>IQ testing Excuse me for saying, but this alone suffices to reveal your character. IQ is an unscientific measure, full of holes, doesn't correlate in any meaningful way to success, let alone worth to society. IQ testing, really? Not success, not merit, not services to society, f*cking IQ testing. I mean, I take it you would rather have a 170 IQ shut-in doing nothing productive with his talents than a hardworking labourer or a celebrated NGO founder in your country? I would venture further. If I had to wager I would say you got praised a lot for being smart when you were a child, maybe even got a good score in IQ testing at some point in your life. It skewed your view of things and now you reduce everything to that. But maybe I'm wrong.
- soldierofhayley 9y ago
  "In the normal population, g and IQ are roughly 90% correlated and are often used interchangeably." Sorry the science doesn't agree with what you think it should be, I will be sure to let the scientists know. https://www.iq-tests.eu/iq-test-IQ-and-general-intelligence-factor-300.html https://www.iq-tests.eu/iq-test-IQ-and-general-intelligence-...
  - andrepd 9y ago
    I literally have no idea what your point with that quote is. Anyway, Wikipedia has a good overview of the main gripes with IQ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Criticism_and_views https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Criticis...
    - thebooktocome 9y ago
      Looks like grandparent could use a copy of Vigen's _Spurious Correlations_: https://www.amazon.com/Spurious-Correlations-Tyler-Vigen/dp/0316339431 https://www.amazon.com/Spurious-Correlations-Tyler-Vigen/dp/... I think it'd make a lovely coffee table book.
bildung 9y ago
I guess people object to your post for moral reasons, but your position is also factually indefensible. * First, intelligence is mostly cultural, not genetic. I know that's not a popular view in the US, but it's true nonetheless. There are multiple adoption studies that show how intelligence of kids rise as much as 20 points on the IQ scale, once they have a nurturing social environment. It's also pretty obvious once you think about the fact that european immigrants in the US were almost all analphabetic subsitance farmers, yet nowadays descendents of those people design neural nets and self driving cars. * Intelligence (the difference between g and IQ is irrelevant, as both are pretty much defined by the same thing: an intelligence test) is not a good predictor for future work performance. Other personality traits like conscientiousness and neuroticism are, in combination, more important. * Despite decades of research, there still are no language independent intelligence tests of comparable reliability to the language-dependent variants, so the actual measuring is not possible.