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> It discounts his hard work to say it all came down to lucky brain genetics. How many people work hard their entire life only to not be rewarded? It's not l

> It discounts his hard work to say it all came down to lucky brain genetics. How many people work hard their entire life only to not be rewarded? It's not like everyone who doesn't see success is lazy or doesn't work hard. Labourers work hard, tradesmen work hard, and yes, programmers work hard too. I live in Alberta right now, which is in the midst of an economic recession/depression. In my city unemployment is at 10%, despite being probably the youngest, most educated city in the country. All of my peers have degrees (or better), and most don't have jobs in their fields. All have worked hard, all still work hard, most are underemployed. > At what point do we reward human accomplishment instead of throwing it all away to "luck"? I hear this all too often nowadays that any kind of success can always be attributed to luck and therefor you have a moral obligation to those less "lucky" than you. I personally hate the idea of a moral obligation to do anything. Shaming people into certain behaviours is shitty. But we do live in a society amongst other people. Poverty begets crime and social unrest, and it's not in anyone's interest for this to happen. So we attempt to construct the best society we can for all our benefit. Having a highly-stratified society, even if we feel it's 'fair', isn't a good thing.

programmarchy 9y ago
> Poverty begets crime Does it, or is it the other way around? Crime in an area will cause businesses and capable people to leave, which causes an area to become poor. I'd concede that it may be a two way street, but also think it's worth considering how that cycle works in both directions. There have been many studies in criminology that strongly link crime and IQ. This is an unpopular viewpoint, because IQ is primarily genetic and seemingly fixed at birth. However, if it is true then it would explain why our current approaches of throwing money at the problem aren't working (e.g. welfare, increased spending in education). And in that case, instead of doubling down on failing policies, we need to think of new ways to address the issues at a genetic level. For example, what if instead of increasing welfare, the government subsidized IVF, allowing poor people to select embryos with genetic markers for high IQ or without markers for disease like diabetes or sickle cell anemia? Perhaps a tough sell, and maybe there are better ways. But I think we need to move beyond the reasoning that all our problems are socioeconomic, and start looking at the full picture which requires us to accept some unsettling evidence about biology, race, and IQ.
Swizec 9y ago
> In my city unemployment is at 10% We can play that game. In my country youth unemployment rate (those under 30) is 13.7%. That ignores everyone who is studying until 27 because "they're not in the labor force". Overall unemployment rate is 9.8%. Again, discounting everyone who is "not in the labor force". As far as I know, we've been in an economic recession for the past 10 years or so. Before that we were in a "Yeah we're growing but socialism fucked us" stage for some 15 years. > Poverty begets crime and social unrest We're one of the safest countries in Europe. I don't know why Americans love to lump crime together with poverty, but that's not how it works in Europe from what I can tell. Or at least in my part of Europe. Social unrest, yes there's some of that. Demonstrations happen once in a while. Just like they do in the US all the time. That's just part of democracy.
- Mikeb85 9y ago
  Going from ~3% unemployment to ~10% overnight has caused a very noticeable change in the city. Yes, there are countries where this is the norm, just like it will probably be the norm here for the foreseeable future. The point isn't that where I live is awful (it's really not), but that education and hard work doesn't guarantee success when there are macroeconomic forces working against you. > We're one of the safest countries in Europe. I don't know why Americans love to lump crime together with poverty, but that's not how it works in Europe from what I can tell. Or at least in my part of Europe. I'm willing to bet your country has a decent safety net, and that there's less 'poverty' than the US, even if your unemployment is higher.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  I'm also European. Which group has it worst in your country, and why?
  - Swizec 9y ago
    Good question! Overall the Roma population probably has it worst. Followed closely by the immigrants. I'm not a good judge of Why because I don't have good insight. The Roma seem to have your usual problems of being below the poverty line, a culture that heavily discourages improving your lot in life, and a strong culture of expecting govenment handouts. If you asked a Roma I'm sure their explanation would be different, this is what it looks like from the outside. The immigrants, well, they're immigrants. New culture new life new jobs low prospects due to social standing and so on. Immigrants always seem to struggle.
rubicon33 9y ago
> It's not like everyone who doesn't see success is lazy or doesn't work hard. Well, I never said that did I? In fact that's kind of the point of my original post. Don't discount everyone who's had success as having had it due to luck. And don't discount everyone who's had failure as having had it due to lack of luck. > I personally hate the idea of a moral obligation to do anything. Shaming people into certain behaviours is shitty. I agree. I should clarify that when I say "moral obligation" what I mean to say is "my own, personal, moral obligation". What you do with your life, and what conclusions you draw based on your experiences, are your own. Just don't hurt people. > Having a highly-stratified society, even if we feel it's 'fair', isn't a good thing. Fair point to which I don't disagree. Life is inherently not fair, nor is it kind and forgiving. To your point, that doesn't mean we should give up our ideals of peace and happiness for everyone. My only concern is that we don't write off our fellow man as having achieved all of their success because they were born in the right place, time, skin color, gender, genetics, etc. In my opinion that's a way of looking at life that is detrimental. Instead, accept that luck plays a significant role in all aspects of life, but with hard work you can change your life.

programmarchy 9y ago

> Poverty begets crime Does it, or is it the other way around? Crime in an area will cause businesses and capable people to leave, which causes an area to become poor. I'd concede that it may be a two way street, but also think it's worth considering how that cycle works in both directions. There have been many studies in criminology that strongly link crime and IQ. This is an unpopular viewpoint, because IQ is primarily genetic and seemingly fixed at birth. However, if it is true then it would explain why our current approaches of throwing money at the problem aren't working (e.g. welfare, increased spending in education). And in that case, instead of doubling down on failing policies, we need to think of new ways to address the issues at a genetic level. For example, what if instead of increasing welfare, the government subsidized IVF, allowing poor people to select embryos with genetic markers for high IQ or without markers for disease like diabetes or sickle cell anemia? Perhaps a tough sell, and maybe there are better ways. But I think we need to move beyond the reasoning that all our problems are socioeconomic, and start looking at the full picture which requires us to accept some unsettling evidence about biology, race, and IQ.

Swizec 9y ago

> In my city unemployment is at 10% We can play that game. In my country youth unemployment rate (those under 30) is 13.7%. That ignores everyone who is studying until 27 because "they're not in the labor force". Overall unemployment rate is 9.8%. Again, discounting everyone who is "not in the labor force". As far as I know, we've been in an economic recession for the past 10 years or so. Before that we were in a "Yeah we're growing but socialism fucked us" stage for some 15 years. > Poverty begets crime and social unrest We're one of the safest countries in Europe. I don't know why Americans love to lump crime together with poverty, but that's not how it works in Europe from what I can tell. Or at least in my part of Europe. Social unrest, yes there's some of that. Demonstrations happen once in a while. Just like they do in the US all the time. That's just part of democracy.

Mikeb85 9y ago
Going from ~3% unemployment to ~10% overnight has caused a very noticeable change in the city. Yes, there are countries where this is the norm, just like it will probably be the norm here for the foreseeable future. The point isn't that where I live is awful (it's really not), but that education and hard work doesn't guarantee success when there are macroeconomic forces working against you. > We're one of the safest countries in Europe. I don't know why Americans love to lump crime together with poverty, but that's not how it works in Europe from what I can tell. Or at least in my part of Europe. I'm willing to bet your country has a decent safety net, and that there's less 'poverty' than the US, even if your unemployment is higher.
anigbrowl 9y ago
I'm also European. Which group has it worst in your country, and why?
- Swizec 9y ago
  Good question! Overall the Roma population probably has it worst. Followed closely by the immigrants. I'm not a good judge of Why because I don't have good insight. The Roma seem to have your usual problems of being below the poverty line, a culture that heavily discourages improving your lot in life, and a strong culture of expecting govenment handouts. If you asked a Roma I'm sure their explanation would be different, this is what it looks like from the outside. The immigrants, well, they're immigrants. New culture new life new jobs low prospects due to social standing and so on. Immigrants always seem to struggle.

rubicon33 9y ago

> It's not like everyone who doesn't see success is lazy or doesn't work hard. Well, I never said that did I? In fact that's kind of the point of my original post. Don't discount everyone who's had success as having had it due to luck. And don't discount everyone who's had failure as having had it due to lack of luck. > I personally hate the idea of a moral obligation to do anything. Shaming people into certain behaviours is shitty. I agree. I should clarify that when I say "moral obligation" what I mean to say is "my own, personal, moral obligation". What you do with your life, and what conclusions you draw based on your experiences, are your own. Just don't hurt people. > Having a highly-stratified society, even if we feel it's 'fair', isn't a good thing. Fair point to which I don't disagree. Life is inherently not fair, nor is it kind and forgiving. To your point, that doesn't mean we should give up our ideals of peace and happiness for everyone. My only concern is that we don't write off our fellow man as having achieved all of their success because they were born in the right place, time, skin color, gender, genetics, etc. In my opinion that's a way of looking at life that is detrimental. Instead, accept that luck plays a significant role in all aspects of life, but with hard work you can change your life.