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The required burden of proof can and should be much lower in the workplace. Sure everyone is capable of lying but P(harassment occurred | report of harassment)

The required burden of proof can and should be much lower in the workplace. Sure everyone is capable of lying but P(harassment occurred | report of harassment) is much greater than P(harassment did not occur | report of harassment).

macspoofing 9y ago
>Sure everyone is capable of lying but P(harassment occurred | report of harassment) is much greater than P(harassment did not occur | report of harassment). Care to put some real numbers on that?
antisthenes 9y ago
> The required burden of proof can and should be much lower in the workplace. Absolutely f-ing not. I'm not even sure what sort of mindset one needs to have to arrive at this conclusion. Did you even consider the fact how damaging a false accusation can be to the other person? No. Just no.
- kevinburke 9y ago
  Sure. Sexual harassment is worse than a false accusation, so yes, I'm going to err on the side of taking a harassment claim seriously. If the cost is a few people getting fired that might not have, fine. Standards for the burden of proof in a court of law and in the workplace are and should be different.
  - macspoofing 9y ago
    Wow. You are callus and uncaring. You probably think it could never happen to you because you're one of the good ones. I bet if you are ever on the receiving end of a false accusation you will be singing a different tune. You will be shouting from the hilltops about the unfairness of it all, suing the company and accuser for defamation and writing blog posts to tell your side of the story, because even a mere accusation could ruin your entire career and your personal life. Your spouse, kids, neighbours, friends, business partners, customers will see this accusation attached to your name and wonder if there's truth to that. This situation played out exactly as I described with a noted feminist activist, Richard Carrier, who had the exact perspective you did until he got accused of harrassment. Good luck to you.
    - kevinburke 9y ago
      > I bet if you are ever on the receiving end of a false accusation you will be singing a different tune. I don't know, I could say the same about women and men who show up to work and just want to do their jobs without coworkers trying to grope them, make lewd comments, withhold promotions or offer interesting work only in exchange for sexual favors. That seems pretty unfair too and we hear about that happening far more often than we hear about people being unjustly accused. I'm a rich white guy, if someone makes a false accusation against me and I have to leave a company, tough luck; I'll be OK. Obviously I would prefer if people do not make false accusations, and a company should try in the event of any allegation to determine whether it has a factual basis. But if it's a he said she said situation I am going to side with the accuser. The wild thing is that the situation you are describing happens literally weekly in tech - prominent women do shout about the unfairness of it all, about reporting harassment and having nothing happen, or being forced out of companies after reporting. Many women choose to leave.
      - macspoofing 9y ago
        >I'm a rich white guy, if someone makes a false accusation against me and I have to leave a company, tough luck; I'll be OK. Ah. Isn't that perfect. It's great you're rich and your life could never be ruined by false accusations. Screw everyone else eh? >But if it's a he said she said situation I am going to side with the accuser That's insane. >The wild thing is that the situation you are describing happens literally weekly in tech - prominent women do shout about the unfairness of it all, about reporting harassment and having nothing happen, or being forced out of companies after reporting. Many women choose to leave You keep saying things like this but at some point you may want to back it up with some real numbers otherwise I'll just assume you're making things up.
        kevinburke 9y ago
        > at some point you may want to back it up with some real numbers Off my recent twitter feed... maybe I'll start saving these when people ask for proof https://twitter.com/jilljubs/status/874985023350472704 https://twitter.com/jilljubs/status/874985023350472704 https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/875104375244414977 https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/875104375244414977 https://twitter.com/paulcbetts/status/723595214875578368 https://twitter.com/paulcbetts/status/723595214875578368
- dang 9y ago
  This sort of comment will get you banned here regardless of what you're commenting about. We've warned you about this before. If you don't want to be banned, it's time to post civilly and substantively or not at all. It should go without saying, but this is independent of how wrong other commenters are. Someone else being wrong does not confer the right to drag the discussion down further.
jpttsn 9y ago
Bayes would like to see you in his office

macspoofing 9y ago

>Sure everyone is capable of lying but P(harassment occurred | report of harassment) is much greater than P(harassment did not occur | report of harassment). Care to put some real numbers on that?

antisthenes 9y ago

> The required burden of proof can and should be much lower in the workplace. Absolutely f-ing not. I'm not even sure what sort of mindset one needs to have to arrive at this conclusion. Did you even consider the fact how damaging a false accusation can be to the other person? No. Just no.

kevinburke 9y ago
Sure. Sexual harassment is worse than a false accusation, so yes, I'm going to err on the side of taking a harassment claim seriously. If the cost is a few people getting fired that might not have, fine. Standards for the burden of proof in a court of law and in the workplace are and should be different.
- macspoofing 9y ago
  Wow. You are callus and uncaring. You probably think it could never happen to you because you're one of the good ones. I bet if you are ever on the receiving end of a false accusation you will be singing a different tune. You will be shouting from the hilltops about the unfairness of it all, suing the company and accuser for defamation and writing blog posts to tell your side of the story, because even a mere accusation could ruin your entire career and your personal life. Your spouse, kids, neighbours, friends, business partners, customers will see this accusation attached to your name and wonder if there's truth to that. This situation played out exactly as I described with a noted feminist activist, Richard Carrier, who had the exact perspective you did until he got accused of harrassment. Good luck to you.
  - kevinburke 9y ago
    > I bet if you are ever on the receiving end of a false accusation you will be singing a different tune. I don't know, I could say the same about women and men who show up to work and just want to do their jobs without coworkers trying to grope them, make lewd comments, withhold promotions or offer interesting work only in exchange for sexual favors. That seems pretty unfair too and we hear about that happening far more often than we hear about people being unjustly accused. I'm a rich white guy, if someone makes a false accusation against me and I have to leave a company, tough luck; I'll be OK. Obviously I would prefer if people do not make false accusations, and a company should try in the event of any allegation to determine whether it has a factual basis. But if it's a he said she said situation I am going to side with the accuser. The wild thing is that the situation you are describing happens literally weekly in tech - prominent women do shout about the unfairness of it all, about reporting harassment and having nothing happen, or being forced out of companies after reporting. Many women choose to leave.
    - macspoofing 9y ago
      >I'm a rich white guy, if someone makes a false accusation against me and I have to leave a company, tough luck; I'll be OK. Ah. Isn't that perfect. It's great you're rich and your life could never be ruined by false accusations. Screw everyone else eh? >But if it's a he said she said situation I am going to side with the accuser That's insane. >The wild thing is that the situation you are describing happens literally weekly in tech - prominent women do shout about the unfairness of it all, about reporting harassment and having nothing happen, or being forced out of companies after reporting. Many women choose to leave You keep saying things like this but at some point you may want to back it up with some real numbers otherwise I'll just assume you're making things up.
      - kevinburke 9y ago
        > at some point you may want to back it up with some real numbers Off my recent twitter feed... maybe I'll start saving these when people ask for proof https://twitter.com/jilljubs/status/874985023350472704 https://twitter.com/jilljubs/status/874985023350472704 https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/875104375244414977 https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/875104375244414977 https://twitter.com/paulcbetts/status/723595214875578368 https://twitter.com/paulcbetts/status/723595214875578368
dang 9y ago
This sort of comment will get you banned here regardless of what you're commenting about. We've warned you about this before. If you don't want to be banned, it's time to post civilly and substantively or not at all. It should go without saying, but this is independent of how wrong other commenters are. Someone else being wrong does not confer the right to drag the discussion down further.

jpttsn 9y ago

Bayes would like to see you in his office