3 ms·

factor of 10 over what they would sell the same product for to non-health care areas That's a key statement. So these same people charge less for the same pro

by crusso 9y ago

factor of 10 over what they would sell the same product for to non-health care areas That's a key statement. So these same people charge less for the same product in other fields. Why? The reason has to do with the construction of the healthcare industry. Lots of regulations. Lots of middlemen. Laws designed to destroy innovation. Very little transparency for costs and outcomes.

fao_ 9y ago
> The reason has to do with the construction of the healthcare industry. Lots of regulations. Lots of middlemen. Laws designed to destroy innovation. Very little transparency for costs and outcomes. Or the reason has to do with the fact that the people that need these treatments are willing to pay any price for it because their life literally depends on it. I don't see why regulations, and laws "designed to destroy innovation" (i.e. keep people safe from bogus drugs) are a bad thing. (Of course lack of transparency and middlemen are bad). Almost all of the regulations in the medical industry are for ensuring people are safe, and do not succumb to drugs that are no more effective than a placebo. I think one of the main reasons why the price is artificially inflated is because of the patent laws in this area. Capitalism itself has various safeguards to ensure that the cost does not get too high for people to buy it, and to ensure that monopolies do not grow, but it seems that we have actually created laws (patent laws, mainly) that circumvent these safeguards.
- tertius 9y ago
  > Or the reason has to do with the fact that the people that need these treatments are willing to pay any price for it because their life literally depends on it. Largely the end user does not pay full price and relies on negotiation by an insurance company. Have you seen what doctors charge these days? Those are all fake numbers.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- crusso 9y ago
  their life literally depends on it. That would only explain emergency procedure costs. Everyday healthcare costs that are not life-or-death are also extremely high. Almost all of the regulations in the medical industry are for ensuring people are safe Are tax laws that benefit employers and lock employees into healthcare plans there to keep people safe? How about laws that prevent companies from selling insurance across state lines? Allowing companies to confiscate unused FSA money at the end of every year? And even then, there are many regulations and laws that I'm sure are ostensibly to keep people safe in the short term - but they have the negative effect of stifling innovation that could bring down costs and make people safer in the long run. Look at the disastrously-slow pace of the FDA drug approval process that has continued for decades.
  - fao_ 9y ago
    > That would only explain emergency procedure costs. No. It also includes maintenance medicine. If I stop taking my asthma medicine, my quality of life would rapidly deteriorate and I would sooner or later have to be admitted to A&E for an asthma attack. So my life depends on those medicines. The same for people with Depression, Chronic Pain, Severe Vitamin Deficiencies, etc. > How about laws that prevent companies from selling insurance across state lines? That seems extremely logical given how much variation in local law exists in North America. > but they have the negative effect of stifling innovation that could bring down costs and make people safer in the long run could. Given the sheer amount of bad science in medicine at the moment (e.g. refusing to publish negative studies), it is not likely. Medicine is difficult, and where we have rushed drugs through we have an extremely poor track record (Such as, a type of SRIs being prescribed, that later was discovered to raise the incidence of suicide among adolescents. In this specific instance this was known before it went on market, but the papers were not published).
- Spooky23 9y ago
  He's not talking about medicine here. Medical facilities pay more for stuff like toilet paper and chairs. There's a culture of bureaucracy and incompetence in the medical industry that is unbeaten even by government.
- otherme1 9y ago
  Food and clothes are more needed than health products. You'll literally die in less than one week without any of them, yet they're cheap and plenty. And make no mistake: when the state intervened those markets people died like flies from starvation. Just look at Venezuela, that was a rich country 20 years ago. If you want to learn something about state protection in the drug market, see "Dallas buyers club" movie.
tertius 9y ago
Why? Because the market will bear it. Simple.
- crusso 9y ago
  The "market" bears it because the regulatory structure of the market allows for no alternatives.
  - tertius 9y ago
    And the market is struggling to push back against those. So we keep it low enough to be affordable (i.e. people are still paying) and not high enough for revolt to ensue. I was mainly replying to conflation of extra middle men etc. for increasing costs. That's nonsense.
1812Overture 9y ago
It has nothing to do with that. It's because the person making the purchase decision isn't the person paying. Usually the doctor and the patient will have no idea how much money is actually changing hands behind the scenes.

by crusso 9y ago

fao_ 9y ago

> The reason has to do with the construction of the healthcare industry. Lots of regulations. Lots of middlemen. Laws designed to destroy innovation. Very little transparency for costs and outcomes. Or the reason has to do with the fact that the people that need these treatments are willing to pay any price for it because their life literally depends on it. I don't see why regulations, and laws "designed to destroy innovation" (i.e. keep people safe from bogus drugs) are a bad thing. (Of course lack of transparency and middlemen are bad). Almost all of the regulations in the medical industry are for ensuring people are safe, and do not succumb to drugs that are no more effective than a placebo. I think one of the main reasons why the price is artificially inflated is because of the patent laws in this area. Capitalism itself has various safeguards to ensure that the cost does not get too high for people to buy it, and to ensure that monopolies do not grow, but it seems that we have actually created laws (patent laws, mainly) that circumvent these safeguards.

tertius 9y ago
> Or the reason has to do with the fact that the people that need these treatments are willing to pay any price for it because their life literally depends on it. Largely the end user does not pay full price and relies on negotiation by an insurance company. Have you seen what doctors charge these days? Those are all fake numbers.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
crusso 9y ago
their life literally depends on it. That would only explain emergency procedure costs. Everyday healthcare costs that are not life-or-death are also extremely high. Almost all of the regulations in the medical industry are for ensuring people are safe Are tax laws that benefit employers and lock employees into healthcare plans there to keep people safe? How about laws that prevent companies from selling insurance across state lines? Allowing companies to confiscate unused FSA money at the end of every year? And even then, there are many regulations and laws that I'm sure are ostensibly to keep people safe in the short term - but they have the negative effect of stifling innovation that could bring down costs and make people safer in the long run. Look at the disastrously-slow pace of the FDA drug approval process that has continued for decades.
- fao_ 9y ago
  > That would only explain emergency procedure costs. No. It also includes maintenance medicine. If I stop taking my asthma medicine, my quality of life would rapidly deteriorate and I would sooner or later have to be admitted to A&E for an asthma attack. So my life depends on those medicines. The same for people with Depression, Chronic Pain, Severe Vitamin Deficiencies, etc. > How about laws that prevent companies from selling insurance across state lines? That seems extremely logical given how much variation in local law exists in North America. > but they have the negative effect of stifling innovation that could bring down costs and make people safer in the long run could. Given the sheer amount of bad science in medicine at the moment (e.g. refusing to publish negative studies), it is not likely. Medicine is difficult, and where we have rushed drugs through we have an extremely poor track record (Such as, a type of SRIs being prescribed, that later was discovered to raise the incidence of suicide among adolescents. In this specific instance this was known before it went on market, but the papers were not published).
Spooky23 9y ago
He's not talking about medicine here. Medical facilities pay more for stuff like toilet paper and chairs. There's a culture of bureaucracy and incompetence in the medical industry that is unbeaten even by government.
otherme1 9y ago
Food and clothes are more needed than health products. You'll literally die in less than one week without any of them, yet they're cheap and plenty. And make no mistake: when the state intervened those markets people died like flies from starvation. Just look at Venezuela, that was a rich country 20 years ago. If you want to learn something about state protection in the drug market, see "Dallas buyers club" movie.

tertius 9y ago

Why? Because the market will bear it. Simple.

crusso 9y ago
The "market" bears it because the regulatory structure of the market allows for no alternatives.
- tertius 9y ago
  And the market is struggling to push back against those. So we keep it low enough to be affordable (i.e. people are still paying) and not high enough for revolt to ensue. I was mainly replying to conflation of extra middle men etc. for increasing costs. That's nonsense.

1812Overture 9y ago

It has nothing to do with that. It's because the person making the purchase decision isn't the person paying. Usually the doctor and the patient will have no idea how much money is actually changing hands behind the scenes.