9 ms·

A few weeks ago, I posted on HN about my experience in Hamburg (no Uber in Germany. The local taxi authority has its own app which works equally well, if not be

by naskwo 9y ago

A few weeks ago, I posted on HN about my experience in Hamburg (no Uber in Germany. The local taxi authority has its own app which works equally well, if not better). Last weekend, I was in Budapest. There is no Uber in Hungary (anymore), but the main taxi company (Fötaxi) has its own app which works brilliantly. I honestly see no "moat" around Uber in markets where (large) taxi dispatchers have the insight to build a ride-hailing app. It's only a matter of time before we are back to square 1, or rather, square 2.0: * licensed, regulated taxis, either independent or through dispatcher * all connected to an (api-)interconnected ecosystem of ride hailing apps * payment to driver directly (cash or card), tipping discretionary * receipts emailed to rider afterwards, with annotated map and start- and end time This will weed out dishonest drivers, and will benefit honest drivers. Uber's only differentiator in well-organised urban markets is its app. The turning point for Uber's decline will be when NY and London mirror Uber's functionality in their own apps, with the benefit (in London) of cabs being allowed to use the cab lanes (or, in Amsterdam, the bus lanes).

naskwo 9y ago
[edit] replace "turning point" with "catalyst"
adamnemecek 9y ago
Ubers other differentiator is the fact that I can go to just about any city in the world and use it. I guess I could research and install fotaxi but as a 21th century consumer, I'm extremely lazy.
- danpalmer 9y ago
  I don't think it comes down to just being lazy. Regardless of whether you've had good or bad experiences with Uber, you've had experiences, may have chatted to their support team, etc, and you know what to expect from the service and the company. The local alternative might be better, but it's an unknown.
  - mhw 9y ago
    So are the local restaurants when compared to McDonald's - I guess it all depends on what you want to get out of travel.
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      For me that's Uber (well, Lyft), but a local restaurant - I don't think it's a fair comparison. Getting somewhere in a cheap and timely way is often an instrumental issue, rather than "part of the travel experience". When it isn't, I'll happily walk, take the subway, etc. This sort of reminds me of Usain Bolt in Beijing, actually. He lived on McDonald's chicken nuggets, not because he's averse to trying new things but because he couldn't risk anything upsetting his stomach during competition. For him, eating was instrumental, so he wanted predictability. Even if you immersive travel, there are times when it's really useful to know what you'll get.
- majewsky 9y ago
  That's why these local taxi companies usually have billboards at train stations and airports that inform travellers of their app. EDIT: Alternatively, convince the taxi companies to open up their API. Then you can have one app that selects the correct API based on your current location.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    > That's why these local taxi companies usually have billboards What year is this? $YEAR_OF_BILLBOARD_INVENTION + 2? > Alternatively, convince the taxi companies to open up their API. I still feel like one company will take over. You cannot build a good product by federating APIs across different municipalities, governments, continents, (planets?).
- parhurs 9y ago
  I read the GP as saying there'll be a unified UI to various local taxis ("interconnected ecosystem"). I could see this emerging from EU regulation, in a similar way they mandate banks to open up their APIs (which is much bigger than taxis).
- martinald 9y ago
  I don't know how big that really is. While there are a few business people/tourists that travel a lot, a lot of execs are likely to either take a taxi straight from the airport taxi queue, as it's quite a lot of hassle to use uber at a lot of airports. The small journeys around town aren't as likely to be as valuable, it's usually the longer airport fares which will make up the majority of taxi spending for people away.
idle_processor 9y ago
> Uber's only differentiator in well-organised urban markets is its app. Lower cost is also a factor, relative to local taxis.
- naskwo 9y ago
  Lower cost, at least in Hungary, was artificial, as Uber was able to undercut local fares given its capital.
mcjiggerlog 9y ago
This is definitely already starting to happen. Uber was banned for a long time here in Madrid which allowed other apps to gain a lot of traction. I'd say the most popular is myTaxi, which allows you to hail the standard local public taxis. I believe it works the same in most major European cities. No need for private taxis.
- _delirium 9y ago
  myTaxi seems to be emerging as a big European one. It's in every major German city (where it started), and also just recently acquired Hailo, which was the dominant London taxi-hailing app.
hueving 9y ago
Paying the driver directly still sucks. In the US you constantly deal with the "I don't take cards" bullshit and lack of simple feedback for when they take you on a scenic tour. I would be fine with taxis if I didn't have to interact with the driver at all when it came to payment and could provide feedback right in the app.
- naskwo 9y ago
  In Germany and Budapest, and certainly Sweden, drivers are required by their dispatchers to accept credit cards. "Cash only" drivers will be a thing of the past soon. Look at what happened with the London black cabs: they all accept credit cards these days.
  - germanier 9y ago
    Not everywhere in Germany and even in places where they are required to, for many drivers the card reader is somehow always "broken" when you try to use it. I now use taxi-calling apps with built-in payment as those are really convenient.
- johnbellone 9y ago
  "I don't take cards" or "It's broken" results in me walking out of the cab. Irregardless of if it's the beginning or end of the trip. All but one time did they change their tune.
- dolguldur 9y ago
  For me the main advantage of using Uber in Europe is payment. It doesn't even matter whether it's card or cash - once I'm at the destination I just want to get out of the car. And having to think about tipping is even worse. And I don't mind paying a fair price.
- _delirium 9y ago
  This is true in some US markets, not true in others. In NYC it's very easy to pay by CC and requires no interaction with the driver, because they installed CC readers in the back seat of every cab years ago. And if the reader is broken, they're required to tell you before the ride starts.
johnbellone 9y ago
First, I hate having to have multiple apps to do the same thing. That would drive me crazy for every city. I would pay a premium not to do that. Second, none of these apps I have seen thus far even attempts to make it easier for the user to add payment methods. Each time I need to put in my credit card information? Twice if I am on business? Nobody has taken advantage of Apple or Android pay integration. I don't consider myself a heavy cab user, but I probably take at least ~200 rides a year, and unless the city is regulated (credit cards) I am using Lyft.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  >First, I hate having to have multiple apps to do the same thing Don't worry, once there are enough apps someone will figure out how to scrape and aggregate the info. The same thing happened when airlines and hotels started putting booking info online except at the time it was websites instead of apps.
  - haswell 9y ago
    Scraping and aggregating airline info is not really comparable. Airline data is based on predetermined schedules and is relatively static. Ride hailing is extremely fluid. Must be real-time. Must be able to provide GPS coordinates of the user to the service in question. I don't think you'll see an aggregation app until there is some ride hailing standard that is adopted by the various providers.
    - ryanbrunner 9y ago
      Google Maps is already starting down this road a bit (admittedly only with the big companies). That's the likeliest path in terms of companies that have the leverage as well as the existing technology to make this happen.
    - ant6n 9y ago
      You don't need a standard, the taxi companies just all need some API. Apps like "Transit App" will just integrate them all.
tim333 9y ago
>London mirror Uber's functionality London black cabs have been available by app for a while (Hailo). The main reason people use Uber is that it's about 30% cheaper.
- piva00 9y ago
  The same almost everywhere, here in Stockholm people used to use Uber when it was about 30% cheaper but nowadays it's been so common to have surge prices that I've not missed uninstalling Uber after the sexist reports came out, sometimes taxis have been cheaper than what friend's Uber app were estimating for a ride. Common users aren't also aware that Uber is cheaper mostly because of their own subsidies. If this is gone soon feels like it'll only hasten Uber's demise.
- daemin 9y ago
  London Black cabs are more expensive than regular taxis because of the huge amount of knowledge those drivers have. The ability to know the city well, along with all road works, detours, construction, and places of interest, is amazing. Even now Google is only approaching this level of knowledge and it still has to improve its interface.
biztos 9y ago
I don't use a taxi app in Budapest -- the good old phone dispatchers still work just fine and I almost never wait more than 10 minutes for a cab -- but in Berlin I use the "MyTaxi" app all the time[0]. The thing I find interesting is that MyTaxi is loosely coupled with the drivers. There is no obligation to pick up MyTaxi fares, you can go about your business as a cabbie and take MyTaxi fares when business is slow. Seems to work quite well for the drivers. This morning I had to wait probably 15 minutes before a driver took my MyTaxi order, but considering how bad the phone-dispatch service is in Berlin I call that a win. Everything else is very Uber-like: electronic receipt, pay in app if you like, tracking of the car on its way to you (more or less). Oh, and two very neat features: you see your cabbie's full name (this feels safer to me) and you can save them, after rating, to a "favorite drivers" list, which I assume the service will use to help improve customer satisfaction. [0]: https://de.mytaxi.com/index.html https://de.mytaxi.com/index.html
- dx034 9y ago
  I had the same in Madrid. Tried to get a taxi for 15 minutes. After that time I had already walked to the next taxi rank and got in the first taxi there. Mytaxi always showed cabs close by but wasn't successful. Wasn't even a busy day, the taxi rank was more than full. As much as I don't like uber, surge pricing can be a really helpful feature that I would like to have with cabs as well.
  - biztos 9y ago
    Or even just let cab companies compete on price, maybe with some limits. When they could compete on price in Budapest it's true that a lot of tourists got ripped off, but it was awesome if you could afford one of the more expensive companies. Once they introduced uniform pricing the better companies got flooded with calls and availability dropped... and tourists still get ripped off, but probably less often and usually when coming from the airport.
arprocter 9y ago
NYC has the Arro[0] app for yellow cabs, although I haven't ever used it - every other vehicle on the road is a cab. I suppose it might be useful during shift change? [0]https://www.goarro.com/ https://www.goarro.com/
rednerrus 9y ago
If you let the taxi authorities control this you are going to go back to artificial scarcity. That is going to create artificial price hikes.
avar 9y ago
> cabs being allowed to use the cab lanes > (or, in Amsterdam, the bus lanes). I have not been in an Uber in Amsterdam in the last couple of years that didn't have a full Taxi license (posted in the dashboard) and where the driver was legally permitted to take the bus/tram lanes. From talking to a few drivers (just asking them about Uber) my understanding is that at some point in Amsterdam Uber was just hiring pretty much anyone with a car as a driver, but then The Netherlands cracked down on it, and now they're all as legit taxi drivers as any other taxi. So I believe you're posting on the basis of out-of-date information when it comes to Amsterdam. Uber's decline in Amsterdam will be not only when the local market provides apps of equal caliber, but when they match Uber in prices, it's way cheaper than taking a taxi over here.

by naskwo 9y ago

naskwo 9y ago

[edit] replace "turning point" with "catalyst"

adamnemecek 9y ago

Ubers other differentiator is the fact that I can go to just about any city in the world and use it. I guess I could research and install fotaxi but as a 21th century consumer, I'm extremely lazy.

danpalmer 9y ago
I don't think it comes down to just being lazy. Regardless of whether you've had good or bad experiences with Uber, you've had experiences, may have chatted to their support team, etc, and you know what to expect from the service and the company. The local alternative might be better, but it's an unknown.
- mhw 9y ago
  So are the local restaurants when compared to McDonald's - I guess it all depends on what you want to get out of travel.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    For me that's Uber (well, Lyft), but a local restaurant - I don't think it's a fair comparison. Getting somewhere in a cheap and timely way is often an instrumental issue, rather than "part of the travel experience". When it isn't, I'll happily walk, take the subway, etc. This sort of reminds me of Usain Bolt in Beijing, actually. He lived on McDonald's chicken nuggets, not because he's averse to trying new things but because he couldn't risk anything upsetting his stomach during competition. For him, eating was instrumental, so he wanted predictability. Even if you immersive travel, there are times when it's really useful to know what you'll get.
majewsky 9y ago
That's why these local taxi companies usually have billboards at train stations and airports that inform travellers of their app. EDIT: Alternatively, convince the taxi companies to open up their API. Then you can have one app that selects the correct API based on your current location.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  > That's why these local taxi companies usually have billboards What year is this? $YEAR_OF_BILLBOARD_INVENTION + 2? > Alternatively, convince the taxi companies to open up their API. I still feel like one company will take over. You cannot build a good product by federating APIs across different municipalities, governments, continents, (planets?).
parhurs 9y ago
I read the GP as saying there'll be a unified UI to various local taxis ("interconnected ecosystem"). I could see this emerging from EU regulation, in a similar way they mandate banks to open up their APIs (which is much bigger than taxis).
martinald 9y ago
I don't know how big that really is. While there are a few business people/tourists that travel a lot, a lot of execs are likely to either take a taxi straight from the airport taxi queue, as it's quite a lot of hassle to use uber at a lot of airports. The small journeys around town aren't as likely to be as valuable, it's usually the longer airport fares which will make up the majority of taxi spending for people away.

idle_processor 9y ago

> Uber's only differentiator in well-organised urban markets is its app. Lower cost is also a factor, relative to local taxis.

naskwo 9y ago
Lower cost, at least in Hungary, was artificial, as Uber was able to undercut local fares given its capital.

mcjiggerlog 9y ago

This is definitely already starting to happen. Uber was banned for a long time here in Madrid which allowed other apps to gain a lot of traction. I'd say the most popular is myTaxi, which allows you to hail the standard local public taxis. I believe it works the same in most major European cities. No need for private taxis.

_delirium 9y ago
myTaxi seems to be emerging as a big European one. It's in every major German city (where it started), and also just recently acquired Hailo, which was the dominant London taxi-hailing app.

hueving 9y ago

Paying the driver directly still sucks. In the US you constantly deal with the "I don't take cards" bullshit and lack of simple feedback for when they take you on a scenic tour. I would be fine with taxis if I didn't have to interact with the driver at all when it came to payment and could provide feedback right in the app.

naskwo 9y ago
In Germany and Budapest, and certainly Sweden, drivers are required by their dispatchers to accept credit cards. "Cash only" drivers will be a thing of the past soon. Look at what happened with the London black cabs: they all accept credit cards these days.
- germanier 9y ago
  Not everywhere in Germany and even in places where they are required to, for many drivers the card reader is somehow always "broken" when you try to use it. I now use taxi-calling apps with built-in payment as those are really convenient.
johnbellone 9y ago
"I don't take cards" or "It's broken" results in me walking out of the cab. Irregardless of if it's the beginning or end of the trip. All but one time did they change their tune.
dolguldur 9y ago
For me the main advantage of using Uber in Europe is payment. It doesn't even matter whether it's card or cash - once I'm at the destination I just want to get out of the car. And having to think about tipping is even worse. And I don't mind paying a fair price.
_delirium 9y ago
This is true in some US markets, not true in others. In NYC it's very easy to pay by CC and requires no interaction with the driver, because they installed CC readers in the back seat of every cab years ago. And if the reader is broken, they're required to tell you before the ride starts.

johnbellone 9y ago

First, I hate having to have multiple apps to do the same thing. That would drive me crazy for every city. I would pay a premium not to do that. Second, none of these apps I have seen thus far even attempts to make it easier for the user to add payment methods. Each time I need to put in my credit card information? Twice if I am on business? Nobody has taken advantage of Apple or Android pay integration. I don't consider myself a heavy cab user, but I probably take at least ~200 rides a year, and unless the city is regulated (credit cards) I am using Lyft.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago
>First, I hate having to have multiple apps to do the same thing Don't worry, once there are enough apps someone will figure out how to scrape and aggregate the info. The same thing happened when airlines and hotels started putting booking info online except at the time it was websites instead of apps.
- haswell 9y ago
  Scraping and aggregating airline info is not really comparable. Airline data is based on predetermined schedules and is relatively static. Ride hailing is extremely fluid. Must be real-time. Must be able to provide GPS coordinates of the user to the service in question. I don't think you'll see an aggregation app until there is some ride hailing standard that is adopted by the various providers.
  - ryanbrunner 9y ago
    Google Maps is already starting down this road a bit (admittedly only with the big companies). That's the likeliest path in terms of companies that have the leverage as well as the existing technology to make this happen.
  - ant6n 9y ago
    You don't need a standard, the taxi companies just all need some API. Apps like "Transit App" will just integrate them all.

tim333 9y ago

>London mirror Uber's functionality London black cabs have been available by app for a while (Hailo). The main reason people use Uber is that it's about 30% cheaper.

piva00 9y ago
The same almost everywhere, here in Stockholm people used to use Uber when it was about 30% cheaper but nowadays it's been so common to have surge prices that I've not missed uninstalling Uber after the sexist reports came out, sometimes taxis have been cheaper than what friend's Uber app were estimating for a ride. Common users aren't also aware that Uber is cheaper mostly because of their own subsidies. If this is gone soon feels like it'll only hasten Uber's demise.
daemin 9y ago
London Black cabs are more expensive than regular taxis because of the huge amount of knowledge those drivers have. The ability to know the city well, along with all road works, detours, construction, and places of interest, is amazing. Even now Google is only approaching this level of knowledge and it still has to improve its interface.

biztos 9y ago

I don't use a taxi app in Budapest -- the good old phone dispatchers still work just fine and I almost never wait more than 10 minutes for a cab -- but in Berlin I use the "MyTaxi" app all the time[0]. The thing I find interesting is that MyTaxi is loosely coupled with the drivers. There is no obligation to pick up MyTaxi fares, you can go about your business as a cabbie and take MyTaxi fares when business is slow. Seems to work quite well for the drivers. This morning I had to wait probably 15 minutes before a driver took my MyTaxi order, but considering how bad the phone-dispatch service is in Berlin I call that a win. Everything else is very Uber-like: electronic receipt, pay in app if you like, tracking of the car on its way to you (more or less). Oh, and two very neat features: you see your cabbie's full name (this feels safer to me) and you can save them, after rating, to a "favorite drivers" list, which I assume the service will use to help improve customer satisfaction. [0]: https://de.mytaxi.com/index.html https://de.mytaxi.com/index.html

dx034 9y ago
I had the same in Madrid. Tried to get a taxi for 15 minutes. After that time I had already walked to the next taxi rank and got in the first taxi there. Mytaxi always showed cabs close by but wasn't successful. Wasn't even a busy day, the taxi rank was more than full. As much as I don't like uber, surge pricing can be a really helpful feature that I would like to have with cabs as well.
- biztos 9y ago
  Or even just let cab companies compete on price, maybe with some limits. When they could compete on price in Budapest it's true that a lot of tourists got ripped off, but it was awesome if you could afford one of the more expensive companies. Once they introduced uniform pricing the better companies got flooded with calls and availability dropped... and tourists still get ripped off, but probably less often and usually when coming from the airport.

arprocter 9y ago

NYC has the Arro[0] app for yellow cabs, although I haven't ever used it - every other vehicle on the road is a cab. I suppose it might be useful during shift change? [0]https://www.goarro.com/ https://www.goarro.com/

rednerrus 9y ago

If you let the taxi authorities control this you are going to go back to artificial scarcity. That is going to create artificial price hikes.

avar 9y ago

> cabs being allowed to use the cab lanes > (or, in Amsterdam, the bus lanes). I have not been in an Uber in Amsterdam in the last couple of years that didn't have a full Taxi license (posted in the dashboard) and where the driver was legally permitted to take the bus/tram lanes. From talking to a few drivers (just asking them about Uber) my understanding is that at some point in Amsterdam Uber was just hiring pretty much anyone with a car as a driver, but then The Netherlands cracked down on it, and now they're all as legit taxi drivers as any other taxi. So I believe you're posting on the basis of out-of-date information when it comes to Amsterdam. Uber's decline in Amsterdam will be not only when the local market provides apps of equal caliber, but when they match Uber in prices, it's way cheaper than taking a taxi over here.