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Cross-post of what I wrote on /r/linux: I definitely think Canonical bit off more than they could chew: Mir Not making use of existing Android drivers

Cross-post of what I wrote on /r/linux: I definitely think Canonical bit off more than they could chew: Mir Not making use of existing Android drivers (I think they resolved this issue later on) Building their own app deployment and isolation system (Snappy) Building their own browser (although they did wisely reuse CEF, or was it WebEngine?) Convergence I really wanted Ubuntu Touch to succeed, I even backed the Ubuntu Edge when it was first announced. However, I think Jolla/SailfishOS did a number of things better: They used Wayland. They used existing Android drivers (using libhybris). App installation/deployment is done using regular RPM. There's currently extremely minimal app isolation. This is a very hard problem. Let the Flatpak folk solve it, then adopt it. They used Nokia's browser (based on Gecko) and office suite (based on Calligra). These were used on the N9, which had a larger install base than all existing Linux-on-the-mobile projects. They used a well-tested ConnMan/ofono combo (these were used on the N9, see above).

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
Developer driven development (DDD). Often leads to bad market fit if the target market is not developers. Would have dropped Android for something like Tails or OpenBSD for phones.
subway 9y ago
The libhybris situation is a pretty miserable compromise. You land on an old, busted Android kernel, with a userland that mostly works. It exists only because the major SoC vendors have no motivation to support a chip after they've shipped a BSP that successfully builds and makes the hardware occasionally provide the desired features. (Apologies for being a bit harsh; I've wasted a ton of time recently hacking on Allwinner and Amlogic chips)
- maheart 9y ago
  The libhybris situation for the time being is "good enough". Sony last year announced their intention to "mainline" their Xperia devices (their main phone brand)[1]. This could eventually mean running Android on the latest mainline kernel, and perhaps even GNU/Linux[2]. [1] https://developer.sonymobile.com/2016/02/17/work-on-the-mainline-kernel-for-open-xperia-devices/ https://developer.sonymobile.com/2016/02/17/work-on-the-main... [2] Jolla (developers of SailfishOS, a real-Linux-on-mobile OS) announced in February that they are partnering with Sony to bring SailfishOS to the Xperia X (https://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sony_Jolla_press_release_MWC2017_FINAL.pdf?x12599 https://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sony_Jolla_pres...), which should hopefully be out this month. It's taken a long time, but real-Linux-on-the-mobile is getting closer.
  - Brakenshire 9y ago
    Credit to Sony for this work. They seem to have almost exactly the right emphasis for me - good cameras, expandable storage, and open devices.
  - c8g 9y ago
    what do you mean by real-Linux-on-mobile OS? isn't Android a mobile os running linux? I hope you meant real-GNU /Linux-on-mobileOS note: "Android is running Linux" is certified by Linus Torvalds
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      Linus has a vested interest in taking credit for the most prolific mobile platform. I don't think there is any common sense in the 'Android is Linux' argument beyond that though. As a software platform, it isn't even remotely similar.
      - johannesburgel 9y ago
        Android is an operating system built on top of the Linux kernel project. "Android is not Linux but ${DISTRIBUTION} is" is just stupid, operating systems simply cannot be compared to a kernel.
        pjmlp 9y ago
        Not quite right, NDK applications are constrained in what they can touch and many syscalls have been removed.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        What does Linus have to do with it?
        c8g 9y ago
        just to mention what I am saying is not just my opinion.
EZ-E 9y ago
I don't think any consumer outside of the linux crowd and a few neckbeards cares whether their phone is using Mir or other technological choices
- maheart 9y ago
  Most likely not. However, I think Canonical should have used Wayland instead[1], and invested their time/effort/money elsewhere. [1] granted Mir may have kicked Wayland development into gear
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Symmetry 9y ago
Hmm, I'd heard that the point of Mir was mostly that it would make using existing Android drivers easier than Wayland would. I guess that wasn't true.
escapetech 9y ago
Jolla/Sailfish had (and quite frankly, continues to have) many problems, making it unsuitable as a phone, or for mobile development. * Jolla has always used (and continues to use) outdated hardware, Ubuntu Phone OS shipped with or ran on reasonably performant hardware. Only after several years is Jolla now discussing the possibility of porting the OS to a somewhat modern device (Sony Xperia) * The Sailfish SDK relies on VirtualBox for the emulator and for native compilation, a drain on resources and memory, and an indication that the development team was not well versed in creating cross compilation ecosystems or tools. Ubuntu Phone SDK was limited to Ubuntu Linux, but ran natively (Sailfish SDK required VirtualBox even on Linux) * For years, Jolla withheld from or misled the public on the state of internal affairs (Canceled tablet, no refunds for crowdfunders, CEO and key employees quitting, lack of funding, relying on volunteers for key areas of development) * Sailfish OS has always lacked basic security features for applications (QT Quick embedded in plain text) or for the phone itself (encryption, permissions). Sailfish's security problems may be just as problematic as Tizen's * Sailfish OS was never true open source, even less so than Android, although it has always been advertised as such. * Very poor/non-existent developer relations - A few developers attempted to make games for Jolla, but encountered serious problems that the developers weren't interested in fixing (i.e. SDL2 on Jolla not supporting landscape mode, preventing games from being submitted), even worse, the developer for the SDL2 Wayland port flat-out refused to fix the problem or provide the source code for other people to fix the issue. Such problems or resistance from the developers were never encountered on Ubuntu Phone OS.
- maheart 9y ago
  > Jolla has always used (and continues to use) outdated hardware But Jolla has shipped. Jolla 1, Intex Aquafish, Turing Phone, Inoi R7[1]. Limited runs of Jolla C, Tablet. Sony Xperia X should be coming soon. This is a startup of (these days) less than 50 people, cut them some slack, they're competing with giants. > The Sailfish SDK relies on VirtualBox for the emulator and for native compilation It's infinitely more efficient to build and ship 1 VirtualBox OS Bundle, v.s. building and maintaining at least 3 different cross-compilation toolchains (one for each of: Windows, MacOSX, Linux). With limited developer resources, I'd choose the latter route too. I also prefer this setup to things like scratchbox2 and Android's (or iPhone's) emulator. It's portable between base OS's and it makes use of existing and well-known tools (VirtualBox). > For years, Jolla withheld from or misled the public on the state of internal affairs The Tablet fiasco could have been communicated better. At the same time, that's the risk you take with Kickstarter/IndieGoGo. It's a startup. I don't agree with any of your other points, they're a startup, it's not all smooth sailing. > Sailfish OS always lacked basic security features for applications (QT Quick embedded in plain text) or for the phone itself (encryption). In regards to packaging, or app isolation, Jolla's wisely chosen to work on "mobile problems" and leave package management to the heavyweights (e.g. RH with Flatpak). VPN support was added in the last release. The public git repos show ongoing work to filesystem encryption. > Sailfish OS was never true open source, even less so than Android Significant pieces of SailfishOS are proprietary. However, I think it's a more "inclusive" OS than Google's Android. Google develops Android. SailfishOS is GNU/Linux, it's developed by Red Hat (e.g. Linux kernel, systemd), Intel (Connman, ofono), Qualcomm (BlueZ), Qt (Qt Company), Mozilla (Firefox), GNU (CLI tools), KDE (Calligra), Collabora (gstreamer), etc. I'm hopeful that one day SailfishOS will be fully open source. > Very poor/non-existent developer relations Disagree. They hold fortnightly meetings (#mer-meeting on Freenode). Most of the code is public (https://git.merproject.org/ https://git.merproject.org/). There's a public Bugzilla (https://bugs.merproject.org/ https://bugs.merproject.org/). There's discussion boards (https://together.jolla.com/ https://together.jolla.com/). Community translation portal (http://translate.sailfishos.org/ http://translate.sailfishos.org/). [1] https://together.jolla.com/question/136143/wiki-available-devices-running-sailfish-os/ https://together.jolla.com/question/136143/wiki-available-de...

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

Developer driven development (DDD). Often leads to bad market fit if the target market is not developers. Would have dropped Android for something like Tails or OpenBSD for phones.

subway 9y ago

The libhybris situation is a pretty miserable compromise. You land on an old, busted Android kernel, with a userland that mostly works. It exists only because the major SoC vendors have no motivation to support a chip after they've shipped a BSP that successfully builds and makes the hardware occasionally provide the desired features. (Apologies for being a bit harsh; I've wasted a ton of time recently hacking on Allwinner and Amlogic chips)

maheart 9y ago
The libhybris situation for the time being is "good enough". Sony last year announced their intention to "mainline" their Xperia devices (their main phone brand)[1]. This could eventually mean running Android on the latest mainline kernel, and perhaps even GNU/Linux[2]. [1] https://developer.sonymobile.com/2016/02/17/work-on-the-mainline-kernel-for-open-xperia-devices/ https://developer.sonymobile.com/2016/02/17/work-on-the-main... [2] Jolla (developers of SailfishOS, a real-Linux-on-mobile OS) announced in February that they are partnering with Sony to bring SailfishOS to the Xperia X (https://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sony_Jolla_press_release_MWC2017_FINAL.pdf?x12599 https://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sony_Jolla_pres...), which should hopefully be out this month. It's taken a long time, but real-Linux-on-the-mobile is getting closer.
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  Credit to Sony for this work. They seem to have almost exactly the right emphasis for me - good cameras, expandable storage, and open devices.
- c8g 9y ago
  what do you mean by real-Linux-on-mobile OS? isn't Android a mobile os running linux? I hope you meant real-GNU /Linux-on-mobileOS note: "Android is running Linux" is certified by Linus Torvalds
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    Linus has a vested interest in taking credit for the most prolific mobile platform. I don't think there is any common sense in the 'Android is Linux' argument beyond that though. As a software platform, it isn't even remotely similar.
    - johannesburgel 9y ago
      Android is an operating system built on top of the Linux kernel project. "Android is not Linux but ${DISTRIBUTION} is" is just stupid, operating systems simply cannot be compared to a kernel.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Not quite right, NDK applications are constrained in what they can touch and many syscalls have been removed.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      What does Linus have to do with it?
      - c8g 9y ago
        just to mention what I am saying is not just my opinion.

EZ-E 9y ago

I don't think any consumer outside of the linux crowd and a few neckbeards cares whether their phone is using Mir or other technological choices

maheart 9y ago
Most likely not. However, I think Canonical should have used Wayland instead[1], and invested their time/effort/money elsewhere. [1] granted Mir may have kicked Wayland development into gear

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Symmetry 9y ago

Hmm, I'd heard that the point of Mir was mostly that it would make using existing Android drivers easier than Wayland would. I guess that wasn't true.

escapetech 9y ago

Jolla/Sailfish had (and quite frankly, continues to have) many problems, making it unsuitable as a phone, or for mobile development. * Jolla has always used (and continues to use) outdated hardware, Ubuntu Phone OS shipped with or ran on reasonably performant hardware. Only after several years is Jolla now discussing the possibility of porting the OS to a somewhat modern device (Sony Xperia) * The Sailfish SDK relies on VirtualBox for the emulator and for native compilation, a drain on resources and memory, and an indication that the development team was not well versed in creating cross compilation ecosystems or tools. Ubuntu Phone SDK was limited to Ubuntu Linux, but ran natively (Sailfish SDK required VirtualBox even on Linux) * For years, Jolla withheld from or misled the public on the state of internal affairs (Canceled tablet, no refunds for crowdfunders, CEO and key employees quitting, lack of funding, relying on volunteers for key areas of development) * Sailfish OS has always lacked basic security features for applications (QT Quick embedded in plain text) or for the phone itself (encryption, permissions). Sailfish's security problems may be just as problematic as Tizen's * Sailfish OS was never true open source, even less so than Android, although it has always been advertised as such. * Very poor/non-existent developer relations - A few developers attempted to make games for Jolla, but encountered serious problems that the developers weren't interested in fixing (i.e. SDL2 on Jolla not supporting landscape mode, preventing games from being submitted), even worse, the developer for the SDL2 Wayland port flat-out refused to fix the problem or provide the source code for other people to fix the issue. Such problems or resistance from the developers were never encountered on Ubuntu Phone OS.

maheart 9y ago
> Jolla has always used (and continues to use) outdated hardware But Jolla has shipped. Jolla 1, Intex Aquafish, Turing Phone, Inoi R7[1]. Limited runs of Jolla C, Tablet. Sony Xperia X should be coming soon. This is a startup of (these days) less than 50 people, cut them some slack, they're competing with giants. > The Sailfish SDK relies on VirtualBox for the emulator and for native compilation It's infinitely more efficient to build and ship 1 VirtualBox OS Bundle, v.s. building and maintaining at least 3 different cross-compilation toolchains (one for each of: Windows, MacOSX, Linux). With limited developer resources, I'd choose the latter route too. I also prefer this setup to things like scratchbox2 and Android's (or iPhone's) emulator. It's portable between base OS's and it makes use of existing and well-known tools (VirtualBox). > For years, Jolla withheld from or misled the public on the state of internal affairs The Tablet fiasco could have been communicated better. At the same time, that's the risk you take with Kickstarter/IndieGoGo. It's a startup. I don't agree with any of your other points, they're a startup, it's not all smooth sailing. > Sailfish OS always lacked basic security features for applications (QT Quick embedded in plain text) or for the phone itself (encryption). In regards to packaging, or app isolation, Jolla's wisely chosen to work on "mobile problems" and leave package management to the heavyweights (e.g. RH with Flatpak). VPN support was added in the last release. The public git repos show ongoing work to filesystem encryption. > Sailfish OS was never true open source, even less so than Android Significant pieces of SailfishOS are proprietary. However, I think it's a more "inclusive" OS than Google's Android. Google develops Android. SailfishOS is GNU/Linux, it's developed by Red Hat (e.g. Linux kernel, systemd), Intel (Connman, ofono), Qualcomm (BlueZ), Qt (Qt Company), Mozilla (Firefox), GNU (CLI tools), KDE (Calligra), Collabora (gstreamer), etc. I'm hopeful that one day SailfishOS will be fully open source. > Very poor/non-existent developer relations Disagree. They hold fortnightly meetings (#mer-meeting on Freenode). Most of the code is public (https://git.merproject.org/ https://git.merproject.org/). There's a public Bugzilla (https://bugs.merproject.org/ https://bugs.merproject.org/). There's discussion boards (https://together.jolla.com/ https://together.jolla.com/). Community translation portal (http://translate.sailfishos.org/ http://translate.sailfishos.org/). [1] https://together.jolla.com/question/136143/wiki-available-devices-running-sailfish-os/ https://together.jolla.com/question/136143/wiki-available-de...