4 ms·

From Wikipedia: >Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes,[26][27] the spore itself is not killed by the

From Wikipedia: >Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes,[26][27] the spore itself is not killed by the temperatures reached with normal sea-level-pressure boiling, leaving it free to grow and again produce the toxin when conditions are right

Vindicis 9y ago
Ah yes, a pithy phrase from Wikipedia that isn't backed-up at all by the sources. /golfclap Here, read through all these, and then get back to me if you think you're still correct. Perhaps this explanation will make it clearer? http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm Something more scientific? https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252447.pdf https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252... http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.full.pdf http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.ful... https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/sources/files/multimedia/pdfs/acmsfvacpackreport.pdf https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/... http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook/2-Chapter%202%20Thermal%20Principles%20and%20Kinetics.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook... http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm A Nice explanation of thermal processing food for canning: https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 Textbooks? Principles of Microbiological Troubleshooting in the Industrial Food Processing Environment See chapter 2.7 Compendium of the Microbiological Spoilage of Foods and Beverages Pages 20-24, 187-188, 210
- lordlimecat 9y ago
  The FDA source seems to be the best one, and was useful-- thanks for that. I'll concede that I (and it appears Wikipedia) are wrong on this matter. For future reference, you could probably just list that, and drop the attitude. You should also avoid dumping a glut of studies that you didn't bother to read, and that turn out to be irrelevant to the study; for instance the NCBI study you linked was discussing lysozyme's effect on temperatures and appears to contradict your statements, while the AEM ASM study (34/1/23) doesnt back you up as none of the trials they did went below 104 C, and it showed an inverse logarithmic relationship with decreasing temperature.
  - Vindicis 9y ago
    I have read them all, but thanks for assuming I didn't. You know why I have an attitude, having to argue these points with people who are arguing based on ignorance and not any knowledge or facts of the matter. Perhaps, not commenting on subjects you know woefully little about would be the more prudent course in the future? This isn't a jab at you, just a general point of annoyance with commentators on the internet that always irks me. That NCBI one shows C.bot being killed at temperatures under 100 celsius which doesn't contradict anything I said. See table 5. I never said all of them were to support my point of 100 c being fine. I posted ALL of those for people, if they wish, to educate themselves on the whole process, hence a couple textbooks, how the TDT in canning works, etc...

Vindicis 9y ago

Ah yes, a pithy phrase from Wikipedia that isn't backed-up at all by the sources. /golfclap Here, read through all these, and then get back to me if you think you're still correct. Perhaps this explanation will make it clearer? http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm Something more scientific? https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252447.pdf https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252... http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.full.pdf http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.ful... https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/sources/files/multimedia/pdfs/acmsfvacpackreport.pdf https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/... http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook/2-Chapter%202%20Thermal%20Principles%20and%20Kinetics.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook... http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm A Nice explanation of thermal processing food for canning: https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 Textbooks? Principles of Microbiological Troubleshooting in the Industrial Food Processing Environment See chapter 2.7 Compendium of the Microbiological Spoilage of Foods and Beverages Pages 20-24, 187-188, 210

lordlimecat 9y ago
The FDA source seems to be the best one, and was useful-- thanks for that. I'll concede that I (and it appears Wikipedia) are wrong on this matter. For future reference, you could probably just list that, and drop the attitude. You should also avoid dumping a glut of studies that you didn't bother to read, and that turn out to be irrelevant to the study; for instance the NCBI study you linked was discussing lysozyme's effect on temperatures and appears to contradict your statements, while the AEM ASM study (34/1/23) doesnt back you up as none of the trials they did went below 104 C, and it showed an inverse logarithmic relationship with decreasing temperature.
- Vindicis 9y ago
  I have read them all, but thanks for assuming I didn't. You know why I have an attitude, having to argue these points with people who are arguing based on ignorance and not any knowledge or facts of the matter. Perhaps, not commenting on subjects you know woefully little about would be the more prudent course in the future? This isn't a jab at you, just a general point of annoyance with commentators on the internet that always irks me. That NCBI one shows C.bot being killed at temperatures under 100 celsius which doesn't contradict anything I said. See table 5. I never said all of them were to support my point of 100 c being fine. I posted ALL of those for people, if they wish, to educate themselves on the whole process, hence a couple textbooks, how the TDT in canning works, etc...