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Twitch has some very serious moderation challenges ahead of them, that they haven't proven they're able to solve, before I can be convinced this is a good thing

Twitch has some very serious moderation challenges ahead of them, that they haven't proven they're able to solve, before I can be convinced this is a good thing. Online communities rely on good moderators and moderation tools to be able to thrive. I am a big Hearthstone fan so I enjoy watching the competitions sometimes. It's been consistently the highest viewed Blizzard game on Twitch for a long time now so it's important to bring up in this discussion. PlayHearthstone[1] is the official channel for Hearthstone events so you would think it would be representative of how Blizzard wants to operate in the competitive space. Whether it is due to technology, lack of oversight, or simply not caring, Twitch chat is notoriously atrocious; rampant with trolling, vitriol, spamming, and terrible behavior. To make things worse, there's absolutely no consistency with how events are moderated, if they are at all. For one event, members are banned for simply asking questions, or providing constructive criticism to the casting of the event with mods creating trigger phrases or words that lead to users getting banned immediately without knowing why. For other events, the chatters are allowed to use all manner of racial, sexual, demeaning, and outright threatening and horrific text towards the casters, the events, and the participants. It's disgusting to watch, completely unprofessional, and something that has been brought up multiple times by the community with no concrete resolution. Either Blizzard finds it acceptable, Twitch finds it acceptable, or they haven't figured out how to do well in moderating live chats with thousands of people. Given their track record, I'm hesitant to be excited about the exclusivity. [1] - https://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone https://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone

jsnk 9y ago
Please no, I love Twitch chat the way it is. If streamers want to moderate chat some way, let them do it, but I really hope Twitch doesn't enforce one-size fits all topdown moderation rule. That's how you kill vibrant communities and subcultures who are the top 10% who make Twitch fun, and streams' finances sound. If you find memes and jokes crude for some stream, go to some other and support their streams. So many games and communities have been killed by topdown approach to content moderation.
- WaxProlix 9y ago
  They need to provide tooling to enable moderation, not necessarily enforce it. Forsen's chat isn't going to change, you will still get your gachi on, but official tourneys need a way to stop the insane racism. Look at TerrenceM's comments about how he hoped his parents didn't see the chat while they were rooting for their son in his first competition - it shouldn't be that way, and Twitch (and Blizz/Playheartstone) is failing streamers and competitors by not providing anything in this area.
  - broodbucket 9y ago
    It is difficult because even if you ban racist words, people will still find a way. The old BrainSlug emote is a perfect example of this (for those who don't know, it was the face of a black streamer. He was so sick of people using an image of his face to be racist that the emote was changed to a Futurama-esque actual brain slug). It's tricky. If someone in chat is spamming ANELE ITS JUST A CLOCK BRO ANELE, it certainly has racial connotations, but is the statement itself racist? I don't know. I don't like it but I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with someone being banned from chat because of t.
    - bduerst 9y ago
      But do they find a way that is still relevant to the public? I doubt he would be as embarrassed if commenters spammed 88, as opposed to more openly, well known racist terms. If they want to speak in a secret code, then there's already a long history of racists doing that which isn't unique to online.
    - nnash 9y ago
      >ANELE ITS JUST A CLOCK BRO ANELE Realistically how different is this than people going on /b/ just to type the N word? MingLee spam whenever there is an Asian on screen, TriHard HE SAID IT when someone says 'nei ga' in Mandarin on a Chinese cast or ANELE spam when someone of Indian/Middle East descent is on screen etc. etc.
  - ygaf 9y ago
wapz 9y ago
> they haven't figured out how to do well in moderating live chats with thousands of people This is surely the case. Blizzard has tried various moderation techniques as you have mentioned and they don't seem to work. If I watch streams on twitch I don't look at chat ever (mobile/tablet).
xyzzy_plugh 9y ago
> before I can be convinced this is a good thing. And that's the beauty of it, they don't need to convince you. They're already winning. Your suggestions would kill the soul of the platform.
detaro 9y ago
From my limited sample, that seems to be tied to the communities, not the streaming platform the event happens on. When Hearthstone events move somewhere else, a large part of the community follows. Do others really have better tools do deal with this?
alexashka 9y ago
What solution do you think there can be for a stream with thousands of people watching? They can definitely improve upon it by message-limiting and message-length limiting (maybe they already do that? I always disable the chat) Really, the people who care about the chat I imagine are under 20 and hence take internet communication with strangers seriously. I had great fun in my day being a total dipshit online while playing computer games, it was part of the fun for me. What they can do is have multiple chats, some free-for-all, some moderated, etc. Except, I don't know who's running Twitch but they could've done a thousand and one things to improve their platform and I haven't seen anything, so. It is what it is :) It's frankly plenty good enough for me. I've written an app for iOS that lets me know when more than X number of people are watching a game (GameWhen on iOS App Store) I'm interested in so I don't miss the big tournaments, outside of that, the streams don't lag, the tournaments are bigger than ever, life's good :)
- ruleabidinguser 9y ago
  No, the demographic is 18-25.
- Kiro 9y ago
  I'm 30+ and I love Twitch Chat. It's the only reason I prefer Twitch over YouTube.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
d0m 9y ago
For what it's worth, I just turn off the chat. Exceptions are less popular streams where I know the chat is great. Pro-players also often hang around other pros streams, so you get to interact with not only the streamer but their friends too.
scruple 9y ago
$(".chat-container").remove(); ...has served me well for as long as I can remember.
- Cogito 9y ago
  I pop out the chat and put the video in theatre mode. You can close the chat window if you want, but I'm normally watching things where the streamer is engaged with the chat and volume is fairly low.
  - mojowo11 9y ago
    Good streamers (shoutout to Grubby) will actually read the question they're answering out loud before they answer it. Means I don't have to wade through the insane chat myself, but I still get to experience both sides of the Q&A when he picks out something funny or interesting to respond to.
    - Cogito 9y ago
      Yeah for the most part that works, but I'm also often itching to give my own feedback to the streamer, and that is difficult to do without having it open :D I will say, in the circles I move in, many content creators are also running a discord along side twitch. Some will even invite people into their voice chat to talk with them on stream. I much prefer using discord in those situations, but that may be partly due to the higher barrier to participation that using discord immediately entails.
- pferde 9y ago
  Or just use livestreamer software to watch just the bare stream in a media player of your choice, without all the web crap that comes with twitch interface. And if you for some reason want to participate in chat, there is irc.twitch.tv, where you can simply join channel #streamname in IRC client of your choice, again without all the web crap, and without all the inane twitch emotes. I've been doing that for a few years now, much more pleasant experience than their web interface.
richforrester 9y ago
Your complaint is the equivalent of striding into a concert for 12-20 year olds, and then complaining about the loud noise. You've got to consider the target audience for video games like HearthStone, as well as the amount of users that will be there. No amount of "moderation" will solve that. Ever. If you expect a good conversation with tens of thousands of people at once... you need to adjust your expectations.
- objclxt 9y ago
  > Your complaint is the equivalent of striding into a concert for 12-20 year olds, and then complaining about the loud noise. Certainly you're right that if I go watch a random stream of a match full of teenagers I shouldn't expect the chat to be mature. But should I expect that chat to be racist, or sexist? Should I resign myself to that? I don't think so. There is a difference between a conversation that is immature and a conversation that is, say, racist.
  - sergiotapia 9y ago
    "No, it's the children." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ
  - richforrester 9y ago
    Second part of my post covered the second part of your response: Try moderating, in real life, 10000 people talking at once. Impossible. If you're just there for the game: watch the game and hide the chat (there's a button right next to it). If you're there for a good conversation: you're in the wrong place. There's 10000 people there.
    - objclxt 9y ago
      But I didn't say I expected the conversation to be good, I said I expected it not to be racist. This isn't really any different from what occurs at stadiums for club sports. If you start loading shouting racist abuse whilst spectating at a soccer match in the UK you can expect to be escorted from the premises and given a match ban. Does Twitch have a policy against racism in their chat? Yes. Do they enforce it? No. I'm not suggesting they moderate 10,000 people talking at once: I'm suggesting they target their enforcement to encourage people to stop...which is what's done in real-life sports today.
elmigranto 9y ago
Like real life, chatrooms around us are full of all sorts of people. Unlike real life, there are literally thouthands screaming at a time. It's wierd to expect everyone to conform to your standard, it is unproductive to be offended when they don't, and pretty out of touch to expect someone to shut them up, so you can "feel safe". (I am always amazed how typing "when game starts?" results in couple of whispers and (at) mentions with polite answers even in most crowded chats.)
wnevets 9y ago
>Twitch chat is notoriously atrocious; rampant with trolling, vitriol, spamming, and terrible behavior. aka twitch chat
ruleabidinguser 9y ago
How is this a problem for them?
Zarath 9y ago
Twitch chat is what makes Twitch so enjoyable. Moderation is probably the surest way to kill what makes it so great. Perhaps optional or opt-out filters should be in place or something. I also watched the Hearthstone finals last year and the racism did bother me quite a bit, but it's hard to argue whether something should be done, or what that would be. It's also a super fascinating study in how memes and culture evolves. The memes slowly morph and take on different forms, it's seriously like watching evolution before your eyes. So interesting. The anarchy is what makes this.
- enzanki_ars 9y ago
  I am the exact opposite. Twitch chat is the item I hate most about the experience. For smaller names, the chat is slow and enjoyable, but for streams like those that Twitch is signing deals with, the chat is nothing but emotes and memes. Completely pointless and annoying. It feels like going to a concert where everyone shouts the entire time.
  - plopz 9y ago
    I feel that Twitch chat greatly enhances the viewing experience, and if it was changed or removed I would have no reason to watch something on twitch compared to any other platform. Take for example the Bob Ross marathon. Without chat I could have just watched that on Youtube or Netflix, but chat is what made that special. 50,000 people watching together, seeing the memes evolve as the stream went on, hello bob, RUINED, SAVED, goodbye. I don't think its pointless or annoying and the fact it feels like going to a concert is the best part!
bgammon 9y ago
I hope Twitch chat never becomes more of a police state than it already is. Streamers consistently demonstrate the ability to create the chat environments they want with the scarce tools Twitch has provided them. That seems good enough to me. The problem you are describing is easily solved by simply joining a different chat room while watching the stream. For example: I'm a member of more than one "<streamer name> civil-chat" chat room which I can hop over to if the main stream chat is a bit too cancerous for my veteran eyes. Echoing sibling comment sentiments about enforcing a top-down moderation policy: it's a bad idea. One of the most important things that watching Twitch and playing online games with notoriously toxic communities has taught me is that fun is unmotivated. If you don't understand how someone derives pleasure from an action you find repulsive, it's because you're not meant to. Stop considering other's motivation and suddenly it becomes much easier to enjoy yourself, now that you're not raging at how dumb everyone is.
- panic 9y ago
  I hope Twitch chat never becomes more of a police state than it already is. This isn't a great analogy. Twitch doesn't use physical violence against people chatting on their website. The normalization of racism and bigotry through ironic edginess has much more potential to cause real-world violence than chat moderation.
  - ygaf 9y ago
    There's nothing wrong with the analogy (except being dramatic). edit: this isn't agreeing with the parent poster, as a police state is about the level of control, not whether violence is used which is a fact of policing anyway.
halflings 9y ago
They apparently launched an ML-based auto-moderation tool: https://blog.twitch.tv/moderators-are-the-sword-now-automod-is-the-shield-df3d8aae32a9 https://blog.twitch.tv/moderators-are-the-sword-now-automod-...

jsnk 9y ago

Please no, I love Twitch chat the way it is. If streamers want to moderate chat some way, let them do it, but I really hope Twitch doesn't enforce one-size fits all topdown moderation rule. That's how you kill vibrant communities and subcultures who are the top 10% who make Twitch fun, and streams' finances sound. If you find memes and jokes crude for some stream, go to some other and support their streams. So many games and communities have been killed by topdown approach to content moderation.

WaxProlix 9y ago
They need to provide tooling to enable moderation, not necessarily enforce it. Forsen's chat isn't going to change, you will still get your gachi on, but official tourneys need a way to stop the insane racism. Look at TerrenceM's comments about how he hoped his parents didn't see the chat while they were rooting for their son in his first competition - it shouldn't be that way, and Twitch (and Blizz/Playheartstone) is failing streamers and competitors by not providing anything in this area.
- broodbucket 9y ago
  It is difficult because even if you ban racist words, people will still find a way. The old BrainSlug emote is a perfect example of this (for those who don't know, it was the face of a black streamer. He was so sick of people using an image of his face to be racist that the emote was changed to a Futurama-esque actual brain slug). It's tricky. If someone in chat is spamming ANELE ITS JUST A CLOCK BRO ANELE, it certainly has racial connotations, but is the statement itself racist? I don't know. I don't like it but I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with someone being banned from chat because of t.
  - bduerst 9y ago
    But do they find a way that is still relevant to the public? I doubt he would be as embarrassed if commenters spammed 88, as opposed to more openly, well known racist terms. If they want to speak in a secret code, then there's already a long history of racists doing that which isn't unique to online.
  - nnash 9y ago
    >ANELE ITS JUST A CLOCK BRO ANELE Realistically how different is this than people going on /b/ just to type the N word? MingLee spam whenever there is an Asian on screen, TriHard HE SAID IT when someone says 'nei ga' in Mandarin on a Chinese cast or ANELE spam when someone of Indian/Middle East descent is on screen etc. etc.
- ygaf 9y ago

wapz 9y ago

> they haven't figured out how to do well in moderating live chats with thousands of people This is surely the case. Blizzard has tried various moderation techniques as you have mentioned and they don't seem to work. If I watch streams on twitch I don't look at chat ever (mobile/tablet).

xyzzy_plugh 9y ago

> before I can be convinced this is a good thing. And that's the beauty of it, they don't need to convince you. They're already winning. Your suggestions would kill the soul of the platform.

detaro 9y ago

From my limited sample, that seems to be tied to the communities, not the streaming platform the event happens on. When Hearthstone events move somewhere else, a large part of the community follows. Do others really have better tools do deal with this?

alexashka 9y ago

What solution do you think there can be for a stream with thousands of people watching? They can definitely improve upon it by message-limiting and message-length limiting (maybe they already do that? I always disable the chat) Really, the people who care about the chat I imagine are under 20 and hence take internet communication with strangers seriously. I had great fun in my day being a total dipshit online while playing computer games, it was part of the fun for me. What they can do is have multiple chats, some free-for-all, some moderated, etc. Except, I don't know who's running Twitch but they could've done a thousand and one things to improve their platform and I haven't seen anything, so. It is what it is :) It's frankly plenty good enough for me. I've written an app for iOS that lets me know when more than X number of people are watching a game (GameWhen on iOS App Store) I'm interested in so I don't miss the big tournaments, outside of that, the streams don't lag, the tournaments are bigger than ever, life's good :)

ruleabidinguser 9y ago
No, the demographic is 18-25.
Kiro 9y ago
I'm 30+ and I love Twitch Chat. It's the only reason I prefer Twitch over YouTube.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

d0m 9y ago

For what it's worth, I just turn off the chat. Exceptions are less popular streams where I know the chat is great. Pro-players also often hang around other pros streams, so you get to interact with not only the streamer but their friends too.

scruple 9y ago

$(".chat-container").remove(); ...has served me well for as long as I can remember.

Cogito 9y ago
I pop out the chat and put the video in theatre mode. You can close the chat window if you want, but I'm normally watching things where the streamer is engaged with the chat and volume is fairly low.
- mojowo11 9y ago
  Good streamers (shoutout to Grubby) will actually read the question they're answering out loud before they answer it. Means I don't have to wade through the insane chat myself, but I still get to experience both sides of the Q&A when he picks out something funny or interesting to respond to.
  - Cogito 9y ago
    Yeah for the most part that works, but I'm also often itching to give my own feedback to the streamer, and that is difficult to do without having it open :D I will say, in the circles I move in, many content creators are also running a discord along side twitch. Some will even invite people into their voice chat to talk with them on stream. I much prefer using discord in those situations, but that may be partly due to the higher barrier to participation that using discord immediately entails.
pferde 9y ago
Or just use livestreamer software to watch just the bare stream in a media player of your choice, without all the web crap that comes with twitch interface. And if you for some reason want to participate in chat, there is irc.twitch.tv, where you can simply join channel #streamname in IRC client of your choice, again without all the web crap, and without all the inane twitch emotes. I've been doing that for a few years now, much more pleasant experience than their web interface.

richforrester 9y ago

Your complaint is the equivalent of striding into a concert for 12-20 year olds, and then complaining about the loud noise. You've got to consider the target audience for video games like HearthStone, as well as the amount of users that will be there. No amount of "moderation" will solve that. Ever. If you expect a good conversation with tens of thousands of people at once... you need to adjust your expectations.

objclxt 9y ago
> Your complaint is the equivalent of striding into a concert for 12-20 year olds, and then complaining about the loud noise. Certainly you're right that if I go watch a random stream of a match full of teenagers I shouldn't expect the chat to be mature. But should I expect that chat to be racist, or sexist? Should I resign myself to that? I don't think so. There is a difference between a conversation that is immature and a conversation that is, say, racist.
- sergiotapia 9y ago
  "No, it's the children." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ
- richforrester 9y ago
  Second part of my post covered the second part of your response: Try moderating, in real life, 10000 people talking at once. Impossible. If you're just there for the game: watch the game and hide the chat (there's a button right next to it). If you're there for a good conversation: you're in the wrong place. There's 10000 people there.
  - objclxt 9y ago
    But I didn't say I expected the conversation to be good, I said I expected it not to be racist. This isn't really any different from what occurs at stadiums for club sports. If you start loading shouting racist abuse whilst spectating at a soccer match in the UK you can expect to be escorted from the premises and given a match ban. Does Twitch have a policy against racism in their chat? Yes. Do they enforce it? No. I'm not suggesting they moderate 10,000 people talking at once: I'm suggesting they target their enforcement to encourage people to stop...which is what's done in real-life sports today.

elmigranto 9y ago

Like real life, chatrooms around us are full of all sorts of people. Unlike real life, there are literally thouthands screaming at a time. It's wierd to expect everyone to conform to your standard, it is unproductive to be offended when they don't, and pretty out of touch to expect someone to shut them up, so you can "feel safe". (I am always amazed how typing "when game starts?" results in couple of whispers and (at) mentions with polite answers even in most crowded chats.)

wnevets 9y ago

>Twitch chat is notoriously atrocious; rampant with trolling, vitriol, spamming, and terrible behavior. aka twitch chat

ruleabidinguser 9y ago

How is this a problem for them?

Zarath 9y ago

Twitch chat is what makes Twitch so enjoyable. Moderation is probably the surest way to kill what makes it so great. Perhaps optional or opt-out filters should be in place or something. I also watched the Hearthstone finals last year and the racism did bother me quite a bit, but it's hard to argue whether something should be done, or what that would be. It's also a super fascinating study in how memes and culture evolves. The memes slowly morph and take on different forms, it's seriously like watching evolution before your eyes. So interesting. The anarchy is what makes this.

enzanki_ars 9y ago
I am the exact opposite. Twitch chat is the item I hate most about the experience. For smaller names, the chat is slow and enjoyable, but for streams like those that Twitch is signing deals with, the chat is nothing but emotes and memes. Completely pointless and annoying. It feels like going to a concert where everyone shouts the entire time.
- plopz 9y ago
  I feel that Twitch chat greatly enhances the viewing experience, and if it was changed or removed I would have no reason to watch something on twitch compared to any other platform. Take for example the Bob Ross marathon. Without chat I could have just watched that on Youtube or Netflix, but chat is what made that special. 50,000 people watching together, seeing the memes evolve as the stream went on, hello bob, RUINED, SAVED, goodbye. I don't think its pointless or annoying and the fact it feels like going to a concert is the best part!

bgammon 9y ago

I hope Twitch chat never becomes more of a police state than it already is. Streamers consistently demonstrate the ability to create the chat environments they want with the scarce tools Twitch has provided them. That seems good enough to me. The problem you are describing is easily solved by simply joining a different chat room while watching the stream. For example: I'm a member of more than one "<streamer name> civil-chat" chat room which I can hop over to if the main stream chat is a bit too cancerous for my veteran eyes. Echoing sibling comment sentiments about enforcing a top-down moderation policy: it's a bad idea. One of the most important things that watching Twitch and playing online games with notoriously toxic communities has taught me is that fun is unmotivated. If you don't understand how someone derives pleasure from an action you find repulsive, it's because you're not meant to. Stop considering other's motivation and suddenly it becomes much easier to enjoy yourself, now that you're not raging at how dumb everyone is.

panic 9y ago
I hope Twitch chat never becomes more of a police state than it already is. This isn't a great analogy. Twitch doesn't use physical violence against people chatting on their website. The normalization of racism and bigotry through ironic edginess has much more potential to cause real-world violence than chat moderation.
- ygaf 9y ago
  There's nothing wrong with the analogy (except being dramatic). edit: this isn't agreeing with the parent poster, as a police state is about the level of control, not whether violence is used which is a fact of policing anyway.

halflings 9y ago

They apparently launched an ML-based auto-moderation tool: https://blog.twitch.tv/moderators-are-the-sword-now-automod-is-the-shield-df3d8aae32a9 https://blog.twitch.tv/moderators-are-the-sword-now-automod-...