4 ms·

This is a dangerous misconception. Bringing botulism spores to 100 Celsius will not kill them, the spores can survive indefinitely at these temperatures. This i

This is a dangerous misconception. Bringing botulism spores to 100 Celsius will not kill them, the spores can survive indefinitely at these temperatures. This is literally the reason pressure canning was invented, to heat the liquid to a higher temperature such that botulism spores are destroyed.

Vindicis 9y ago
No, no it doesn't. You two clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I don't how to explain it any simpler than I already have. Depending on the bacteria and the storage conditions of the canned goods, you might need to hold it to a higher f-value. For instance, canned goods that will be stored in a 25-40C range target an f-value of 12 to 15. The higher the temperature you use, the less time you need. And vice versa. It's a misconception that certain bacteria can only be killed at high heat. Quickly, sure. But, as long as you target the correct f-values, all you need is 100C. And a lot of time.
- danaliv 9y ago
  Is there a difference in heat-resistance between the bacteria and the spores?
  - Vindicis 9y ago
    Yes. The bacteria dies easier. But, the 12d process, and the f-values are formulated regarding the death of the spores.
- lordlimecat 9y ago
  From Wikipedia: >Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes,[26][27] the spore itself is not killed by the temperatures reached with normal sea-level-pressure boiling, leaving it free to grow and again produce the toxin when conditions are right
  - Vindicis 9y ago
    Ah yes, a pithy phrase from Wikipedia that isn't backed-up at all by the sources. /golfclap Here, read through all these, and then get back to me if you think you're still correct. Perhaps this explanation will make it clearer? http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm Something more scientific? https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252447.pdf https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252... http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.full.pdf http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.ful... https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/sources/files/multimedia/pdfs/acmsfvacpackreport.pdf https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/... http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook/2-Chapter%202%20Thermal%20Principles%20and%20Kinetics.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook... http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm A Nice explanation of thermal processing food for canning: https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 Textbooks? Principles of Microbiological Troubleshooting in the Industrial Food Processing Environment See chapter 2.7 Compendium of the Microbiological Spoilage of Foods and Beverages Pages 20-24, 187-188, 210
    - lordlimecat 9y ago
      The FDA source seems to be the best one, and was useful-- thanks for that. I'll concede that I (and it appears Wikipedia) are wrong on this matter. For future reference, you could probably just list that, and drop the attitude. You should also avoid dumping a glut of studies that you didn't bother to read, and that turn out to be irrelevant to the study; for instance the NCBI study you linked was discussing lysozyme's effect on temperatures and appears to contradict your statements, while the AEM ASM study (34/1/23) doesnt back you up as none of the trials they did went below 104 C, and it showed an inverse logarithmic relationship with decreasing temperature.

Vindicis 9y ago

No, no it doesn't. You two clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I don't how to explain it any simpler than I already have. Depending on the bacteria and the storage conditions of the canned goods, you might need to hold it to a higher f-value. For instance, canned goods that will be stored in a 25-40C range target an f-value of 12 to 15. The higher the temperature you use, the less time you need. And vice versa. It's a misconception that certain bacteria can only be killed at high heat. Quickly, sure. But, as long as you target the correct f-values, all you need is 100C. And a lot of time.

danaliv 9y ago
Is there a difference in heat-resistance between the bacteria and the spores?
- Vindicis 9y ago
  Yes. The bacteria dies easier. But, the 12d process, and the f-values are formulated regarding the death of the spores.
lordlimecat 9y ago
From Wikipedia: >Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes,[26][27] the spore itself is not killed by the temperatures reached with normal sea-level-pressure boiling, leaving it free to grow and again produce the toxin when conditions are right
- Vindicis 9y ago
  Ah yes, a pithy phrase from Wikipedia that isn't backed-up at all by the sources. /golfclap Here, read through all these, and then get back to me if you think you're still correct. Perhaps this explanation will make it clearer? http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm Something more scientific? https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252447.pdf https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252... http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.full.pdf http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.ful... https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/sources/files/multimedia/pdfs/acmsfvacpackreport.pdf https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/... http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook/2-Chapter%202%20Thermal%20Principles%20and%20Kinetics.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook... http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm A Nice explanation of thermal processing food for canning: https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 Textbooks? Principles of Microbiological Troubleshooting in the Industrial Food Processing Environment See chapter 2.7 Compendium of the Microbiological Spoilage of Foods and Beverages Pages 20-24, 187-188, 210
  - lordlimecat 9y ago
    The FDA source seems to be the best one, and was useful-- thanks for that. I'll concede that I (and it appears Wikipedia) are wrong on this matter. For future reference, you could probably just list that, and drop the attitude. You should also avoid dumping a glut of studies that you didn't bother to read, and that turn out to be irrelevant to the study; for instance the NCBI study you linked was discussing lysozyme's effect on temperatures and appears to contradict your statements, while the AEM ASM study (34/1/23) doesnt back you up as none of the trials they did went below 104 C, and it showed an inverse logarithmic relationship with decreasing temperature.