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So why does the Tesla keep on moving instead of parking itself when it becomes obvious there is no driver? It shouldn't have been possible to warn seven times,

So why does the Tesla keep on moving instead of parking itself when it becomes obvious there is no driver? It shouldn't have been possible to warn seven times, the autonomous car's job is to protect society from bad drivers.

xoa 9y ago
Sometimes reading the article (and even following links, as if we were on a web or something) is actually kind of helpful in answering obvious questions. >"Following the May 2016 accident, Tesla announced a new update in September to help keep drivers from using autopilot if they don't respond to in-vehicle safety warnings." From that article in turn: >"From version 8, if three audio warnings are dismissed within an hour, Autopilot will be disabled until the car is parked. "Autopilot accidents far more likely for expert users; they get very comfortable with it and repeatedly ignore the car's warnings," Musk said, describing the way these drivers dismiss alerts as "a reflex action" and adding that Tesla's data shows that some users dismiss three warnings a minute. At least as of that version last September Tesla was apparently still allowing longer hands-off periods at speed then others in the industry, with the above-45-mph limits being 1 minute of free travel and 3 minutes when following another vehicle, and I don't have the knowledge to make an opinion on whether that's a reasonable length or not at their current level of development. Regardless, this accident from last May did result in changes and apparently wouldn't be possible with the current firmware, or at least not in the same exact manner.
olyjohn 9y ago
Where is it supposed to go? What if there is no shoulder? Does the car have the programming to safely change lanes, and then move onto the shoulder? What if the shoulder is gravel? Can it detect a 6 inch drop off from the pavement to gravel? Will it be able to handle a soft, dirt shoulder should it pull off? Also possible: The car warns the driver, he puts his hands on the wheel long enough to shut it up, car warns the driver again. It's akin to blindly clicking OK when annoying, useless error messages pop up. Do Teslas have lots of false warnings, training people to ignore them?
- rlpb 9y ago
  There are still options. It could sound an increasingly loud alarm, initially inside the cabin and then the horn too. It could start slowing the vehicle. It could turn on the hazard lights. All of these things could hopefully make the driver feel increasingly like an idiot, discouraging abuse. Slowing the vehicle may increase the risk of a collision from behind, but that is balanced by the increased risk of not having a driver at the wheel.
  - exclusiv 9y ago
    I hadn't thought of that but I am a firm believer that some social shaming is a highly effective way to curb behavior. I agree that other cars should be notified if a car is unattended too, just in case they get to an area where the system cannot respond.
- exclusiv 9y ago
  I would think it would make sense to throw on the hazards and come to a stop if it can't figure out the shoulder and the driver is not attentive for whatever reason. In LA - some people are so stupid as to not get off to the shoulder after a collision and also walk around on the freeway, exchanging information, etc. So while there is danger involved, traffic can adjust to a car with hazards on even if it's in a freeway lane. The Tesla's should be able to detect the shoulder and if not, come to a gradual stop on the right lane.
exclusiv 9y ago
When I drove one on autopilot - it would routinely prompt me to put hands on steering wheel. I didn't get them all and autopilot mode was disabled for the rest of my trip. I don't recall the steering wheel prompts to be as obvious as I would have expected since it's so important. I'm pretty sure it's also designed to pull over and stop if it doesn't get feedback ensuring someone is paying adequate attention. But maybe the parameters or functionality was different at the time of this crash. I think autopilot is a great marketing concept but a terrible and inaccurate description of the technology.
- Akujin 9y ago
  Does the warning go away if you only have one hand on the wheel?
  - exclusiv 9y ago
    I don't think so. From what I remembered, it required both hands grasping 10 and 2. I had a lot of distrust for the system (and was hovering the brake) since I hadn't used it before. I had to get used to the controls, the UI, the steering wheel prompts, etc. It works quite well but around the city you'll get to a lot of places where it can't make decisions. One that I recall was an elevated intersection. So the car is going up a slope while it's losing the lines on the road. To the system, it's kind of like a ramp leading to a jump off a cliff, haha. I'm sure these tougher scenarios get ironed out after getting safe feedback from user takeover. But what if the system makes decisions based on other user's actions and then something changes in the road but the sensors can't react?
    - bussierem 9y ago
      Any chance you can provide a source for this? Not calling you out - Just want to see it for myself. I haven't heard too much about this before you mentioned it.
      - exclusiv 9y ago
        Sorry I edited my comment. Which part are you referring to?
sbierwagen 9y ago
the autonomous car's job is to protect society from bad drivers. Interestingly, this is the same argument a class action lawsuit against Tesla is making. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/tesla-says-there-is-no-legal-duty-to-design-a-failsafe-car/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/tesla-says-there... The suit claims that the Model S and Model X are defectively designed and that Tesla did not "develop and implement computer algorithms that would eliminate the danger of full throttle acceleration into fixed objects" even if caused by human error. Right now a Tesla vehicle will let you override the computer, even if that means driving through a wall. https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Teslapic1.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Tesla... Depending on how the lawsuit turns out, that may change.
- derekp7 9y ago
  Is this like the lawsuits against table saw manufacturers, in that they don't all include an auto-stop feature?
_ph_ 9y ago
Well, probably as a consequence of this incident, Tesla made the autopilot more strict. If you ignore the warnings completely, the car is going to stop itself. But even if you just dismiss the warnings, after 3 or so times, the autopilot deactivates completely till the next stop.

xoa 9y ago

Sometimes reading the article (and even following links, as if we were on a web or something) is actually kind of helpful in answering obvious questions. >"Following the May 2016 accident, Tesla announced a new update in September to help keep drivers from using autopilot if they don't respond to in-vehicle safety warnings." From that article in turn: >"From version 8, if three audio warnings are dismissed within an hour, Autopilot will be disabled until the car is parked. "Autopilot accidents far more likely for expert users; they get very comfortable with it and repeatedly ignore the car's warnings," Musk said, describing the way these drivers dismiss alerts as "a reflex action" and adding that Tesla's data shows that some users dismiss three warnings a minute. At least as of that version last September Tesla was apparently still allowing longer hands-off periods at speed then others in the industry, with the above-45-mph limits being 1 minute of free travel and 3 minutes when following another vehicle, and I don't have the knowledge to make an opinion on whether that's a reasonable length or not at their current level of development. Regardless, this accident from last May did result in changes and apparently wouldn't be possible with the current firmware, or at least not in the same exact manner.

olyjohn 9y ago

Where is it supposed to go? What if there is no shoulder? Does the car have the programming to safely change lanes, and then move onto the shoulder? What if the shoulder is gravel? Can it detect a 6 inch drop off from the pavement to gravel? Will it be able to handle a soft, dirt shoulder should it pull off? Also possible: The car warns the driver, he puts his hands on the wheel long enough to shut it up, car warns the driver again. It's akin to blindly clicking OK when annoying, useless error messages pop up. Do Teslas have lots of false warnings, training people to ignore them?

rlpb 9y ago
There are still options. It could sound an increasingly loud alarm, initially inside the cabin and then the horn too. It could start slowing the vehicle. It could turn on the hazard lights. All of these things could hopefully make the driver feel increasingly like an idiot, discouraging abuse. Slowing the vehicle may increase the risk of a collision from behind, but that is balanced by the increased risk of not having a driver at the wheel.
- exclusiv 9y ago
  I hadn't thought of that but I am a firm believer that some social shaming is a highly effective way to curb behavior. I agree that other cars should be notified if a car is unattended too, just in case they get to an area where the system cannot respond.
exclusiv 9y ago
I would think it would make sense to throw on the hazards and come to a stop if it can't figure out the shoulder and the driver is not attentive for whatever reason. In LA - some people are so stupid as to not get off to the shoulder after a collision and also walk around on the freeway, exchanging information, etc. So while there is danger involved, traffic can adjust to a car with hazards on even if it's in a freeway lane. The Tesla's should be able to detect the shoulder and if not, come to a gradual stop on the right lane.

exclusiv 9y ago

When I drove one on autopilot - it would routinely prompt me to put hands on steering wheel. I didn't get them all and autopilot mode was disabled for the rest of my trip. I don't recall the steering wheel prompts to be as obvious as I would have expected since it's so important. I'm pretty sure it's also designed to pull over and stop if it doesn't get feedback ensuring someone is paying adequate attention. But maybe the parameters or functionality was different at the time of this crash. I think autopilot is a great marketing concept but a terrible and inaccurate description of the technology.

Akujin 9y ago
Does the warning go away if you only have one hand on the wheel?
- exclusiv 9y ago
  I don't think so. From what I remembered, it required both hands grasping 10 and 2. I had a lot of distrust for the system (and was hovering the brake) since I hadn't used it before. I had to get used to the controls, the UI, the steering wheel prompts, etc. It works quite well but around the city you'll get to a lot of places where it can't make decisions. One that I recall was an elevated intersection. So the car is going up a slope while it's losing the lines on the road. To the system, it's kind of like a ramp leading to a jump off a cliff, haha. I'm sure these tougher scenarios get ironed out after getting safe feedback from user takeover. But what if the system makes decisions based on other user's actions and then something changes in the road but the sensors can't react?
  - bussierem 9y ago
    Any chance you can provide a source for this? Not calling you out - Just want to see it for myself. I haven't heard too much about this before you mentioned it.
    - exclusiv 9y ago
      Sorry I edited my comment. Which part are you referring to?

sbierwagen 9y ago

the autonomous car's job is to protect society from bad drivers. Interestingly, this is the same argument a class action lawsuit against Tesla is making. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/tesla-says-there-is-no-legal-duty-to-design-a-failsafe-car/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/tesla-says-there... The suit claims that the Model S and Model X are defectively designed and that Tesla did not "develop and implement computer algorithms that would eliminate the danger of full throttle acceleration into fixed objects" even if caused by human error. Right now a Tesla vehicle will let you override the computer, even if that means driving through a wall. https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Teslapic1.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Tesla... Depending on how the lawsuit turns out, that may change.

derekp7 9y ago
Is this like the lawsuits against table saw manufacturers, in that they don't all include an auto-stop feature?

_ph_ 9y ago

Well, probably as a consequence of this incident, Tesla made the autopilot more strict. If you ignore the warnings completely, the car is going to stop itself. But even if you just dismiss the warnings, after 3 or so times, the autopilot deactivates completely till the next stop.