5 ms·

I meant to parse mentally. Control flow in Python is very easy to mentally parse at a glance. Powerful lambdas get rid of that. It's an extremely contrived exa

by rjeli 9y ago

I meant to parse mentally. Control flow in Python is very easy to mentally parse at a glance. Powerful lambdas get rid of that. It's an extremely contrived example, but from the code I posted, it should just be: for x in xs: print(x) print(x) Much easier to read because there's only one way to write it. Hence GVR shunning map/reduce/filter.

KirinDave 9y ago
GVR is wrong. It's okay to be wrong. But the last 5 years of software development and the remarkable growth of Javascript as a platform accessible to everyone make a compelling case that GVR was wrong.
- empthought 9y ago
  No it doesn't. It makes the case that the browser is the most pervasive and flexible application runtime, which we already knew. Server-side JavaScript was never a thing until that was solidified, thus providing a large developer base.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    Why is this a meaningful distinction? Who cares if it's server or client side in this discussion? The Python community has said passing anonymous closures is too complex, the majority of the industry disagrees and has pushed forward. Lambdas are everywhere BUT Python now. Javascript is even pushing forward with more sophisticated constructs to help them build custom monadic constructs, and shipping a super useful monadic construct in syntax. C# has been doing that for years. Java will soon as well. The rest of the industry has moved on from this conceit and you can't really argue that it's made environments like Javascript overwhelming to newcomers. If Python 3 could just get over this conceit, its maintainers could start solving major Python problems really quickly. E.g., Python's janky iteration primitives could be replaced in an afternoon or three with equivalent but cleaner and clearer options.
    - empthought 9y ago
      > Why is this a meaningful distinction? Who cares if it's server or client side in this discussion? It doesn't really matter, except that the browser's dominance as client-side platform is the cause of JavaScript's current ascendancy, rather than programming language design decisions of any sort. This is a refutation of the claim that you made saying "the last 5 years of software development and the remarkable growth of Javascript" make a compelling case that van Rossum is wrong about multiline anonymous functions in Python. Classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. If you're going to stick by the argument that somehow the support of anonymous functions is responsible for JavaScript's recent successes with respect to Python in terms of adoption and pace of development, then you'll have to explain why Lisp didn't take the world by storm when they were introduced nearly sixty years ago. Or, of course, admit that whether or not a particular programming language conforms to your personal preferences has relatively little bearing on the success of that programming language in the world at large.

by rjeli 9y ago

KirinDave 9y ago

GVR is wrong. It's okay to be wrong. But the last 5 years of software development and the remarkable growth of Javascript as a platform accessible to everyone make a compelling case that GVR was wrong.

empthought 9y ago
No it doesn't. It makes the case that the browser is the most pervasive and flexible application runtime, which we already knew. Server-side JavaScript was never a thing until that was solidified, thus providing a large developer base.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Why is this a meaningful distinction? Who cares if it's server or client side in this discussion? The Python community has said passing anonymous closures is too complex, the majority of the industry disagrees and has pushed forward. Lambdas are everywhere BUT Python now. Javascript is even pushing forward with more sophisticated constructs to help them build custom monadic constructs, and shipping a super useful monadic construct in syntax. C# has been doing that for years. Java will soon as well. The rest of the industry has moved on from this conceit and you can't really argue that it's made environments like Javascript overwhelming to newcomers. If Python 3 could just get over this conceit, its maintainers could start solving major Python problems really quickly. E.g., Python's janky iteration primitives could be replaced in an afternoon or three with equivalent but cleaner and clearer options.
  - empthought 9y ago
    > Why is this a meaningful distinction? Who cares if it's server or client side in this discussion? It doesn't really matter, except that the browser's dominance as client-side platform is the cause of JavaScript's current ascendancy, rather than programming language design decisions of any sort. This is a refutation of the claim that you made saying "the last 5 years of software development and the remarkable growth of Javascript" make a compelling case that van Rossum is wrong about multiline anonymous functions in Python. Classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. If you're going to stick by the argument that somehow the support of anonymous functions is responsible for JavaScript's recent successes with respect to Python in terms of adoption and pace of development, then you'll have to explain why Lisp didn't take the world by storm when they were introduced nearly sixty years ago. Or, of course, admit that whether or not a particular programming language conforms to your personal preferences has relatively little bearing on the success of that programming language in the world at large.