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It's at the end: > The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. > "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would to

by pyre 9y ago

It's at the end: > The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. > "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would tolerate that, physically—you couldn’t do that with a glass jar." > Eventually, California olives came back. In cans.

Vindicis 9y ago
Just to nitpick that point in the article. You don't need high temperature. As long as you bring the contents to 100 celsius, all you need is time. They use what's called an f-value to determine at what temp and for how long they need to take. The 1 f-value is defined as 1 minutes at 121 cel. Normally for canned goods that will be stored at 25 celsius and lower, they aim for a 4 to 5.5 f-value. So, at 100 degress, to achieve that score would take 8.5 to 12 hours. Whereas at 121 it would only take 4 to 5.5 minutes. Now, what the texture and taste would be like after 8 hours at 100 I leave as an exercise to the reader.
- Indy_Dh 9y ago
  This is a dangerous misconception. Bringing botulism spores to 100 Celsius will not kill them, the spores can survive indefinitely at these temperatures. This is literally the reason pressure canning was invented, to heat the liquid to a higher temperature such that botulism spores are destroyed.
  - Vindicis 9y ago
    No, no it doesn't. You two clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I don't how to explain it any simpler than I already have. Depending on the bacteria and the storage conditions of the canned goods, you might need to hold it to a higher f-value. For instance, canned goods that will be stored in a 25-40C range target an f-value of 12 to 15. The higher the temperature you use, the less time you need. And vice versa. It's a misconception that certain bacteria can only be killed at high heat. Quickly, sure. But, as long as you target the correct f-values, all you need is 100C. And a lot of time.
    - danaliv 9y ago
      Is there a difference in heat-resistance between the bacteria and the spores?
      - Vindicis 9y ago
        Yes. The bacteria dies easier. But, the 12d process, and the f-values are formulated regarding the death of the spores.
    - lordlimecat 9y ago
      From Wikipedia: >Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes,[26][27] the spore itself is not killed by the temperatures reached with normal sea-level-pressure boiling, leaving it free to grow and again produce the toxin when conditions are right
      - Vindicis 9y ago
        Ah yes, a pithy phrase from Wikipedia that isn't backed-up at all by the sources. /golfclap Here, read through all these, and then get back to me if you think you're still correct. Perhaps this explanation will make it clearer? http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm Something more scientific? https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252447.pdf https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252... http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.full.pdf http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.ful... https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/sources/files/multimedia/pdfs/acmsfvacpackreport.pdf https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/... http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook/2-Chapter%202%20Thermal%20Principles%20and%20Kinetics.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook... http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm A Nice explanation of thermal processing food for canning: https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 Textbooks? Principles of Microbiological Troubleshooting in the Industrial Food Processing Environment See chapter 2.7 Compendium of the Microbiological Spoilage of Foods and Beverages Pages 20-24, 187-188, 210
- stellar678 9y ago
  Actually it takes a temperature of 120 celsius to inactivate C. botulinum spores, which means you have to pressure cook any non-acidic foods that will be canned.

by pyre 9y ago

Vindicis 9y ago

Just to nitpick that point in the article. You don't need high temperature. As long as you bring the contents to 100 celsius, all you need is time. They use what's called an f-value to determine at what temp and for how long they need to take. The 1 f-value is defined as 1 minutes at 121 cel. Normally for canned goods that will be stored at 25 celsius and lower, they aim for a 4 to 5.5 f-value. So, at 100 degress, to achieve that score would take 8.5 to 12 hours. Whereas at 121 it would only take 4 to 5.5 minutes. Now, what the texture and taste would be like after 8 hours at 100 I leave as an exercise to the reader.

Indy_Dh 9y ago
This is a dangerous misconception. Bringing botulism spores to 100 Celsius will not kill them, the spores can survive indefinitely at these temperatures. This is literally the reason pressure canning was invented, to heat the liquid to a higher temperature such that botulism spores are destroyed.
- Vindicis 9y ago
  No, no it doesn't. You two clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I don't how to explain it any simpler than I already have. Depending on the bacteria and the storage conditions of the canned goods, you might need to hold it to a higher f-value. For instance, canned goods that will be stored in a 25-40C range target an f-value of 12 to 15. The higher the temperature you use, the less time you need. And vice versa. It's a misconception that certain bacteria can only be killed at high heat. Quickly, sure. But, as long as you target the correct f-values, all you need is 100C. And a lot of time.
  - danaliv 9y ago
    Is there a difference in heat-resistance between the bacteria and the spores?
    - Vindicis 9y ago
      Yes. The bacteria dies easier. But, the 12d process, and the f-values are formulated regarding the death of the spores.
  - lordlimecat 9y ago
    From Wikipedia: >Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes,[26][27] the spore itself is not killed by the temperatures reached with normal sea-level-pressure boiling, leaving it free to grow and again produce the toxin when conditions are right
    - Vindicis 9y ago
      Ah yes, a pithy phrase from Wikipedia that isn't backed-up at all by the sources. /golfclap Here, read through all these, and then get back to me if you think you're still correct. Perhaps this explanation will make it clearer? http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/httrapps2.htm Something more scientific? https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252447.pdf https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceRegulation/UCM252... http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.full.pdf http://aem.asm.org/content/early/2016/07/25/AEM.01737-16.ful... https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/sources/files/multimedia/pdfs/acmsfvacpackreport.pdf https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mnt/drupal_data/... http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long http://aem.asm.org/content/34/1/23.long https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/11042 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91518/ http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile115866.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook/2-Chapter%202%20Thermal%20Principles%20and%20Kinetics.pdf http://nfscfaculty.tamu.edu/talcott/courses/FSTC311/Textbook... http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/mfr452/mfr4521.pdf http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E22.htm A Nice explanation of thermal processing food for canning: https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 https://www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/40352 Textbooks? Principles of Microbiological Troubleshooting in the Industrial Food Processing Environment See chapter 2.7 Compendium of the Microbiological Spoilage of Foods and Beverages Pages 20-24, 187-188, 210
stellar678 9y ago
Actually it takes a temperature of 120 celsius to inactivate C. botulinum spores, which means you have to pressure cook any non-acidic foods that will be canned.