12 ms·

Maybe my reading comprehension is shot but I didn't get a very clear answer to the question at hand.

bryanlarsen 9y ago
Because in the 20s cans could be pasteurized to a higher temperature than jars could. Black olives in jars were killing people with botulism. Green olives are pickled, so didn't require such high pasteurization temperatures.
- serg_chernata 9y ago
  Thanks, and what was the reason for pickling one kind of olives but not the other?
  - mamon 9y ago
    Green and black olives are one and the same species, but green olives are unripe so they are still growing on a tree, but black ones are ripe so they start falling down by themselves and you can pick them up from the ground, which is much easier.
    - weaksauce 9y ago
      The article states that she had a recipe for artificially ripening the olives. I don't think the olives are picked ripe.
  - drone 9y ago
    "Pickling" may be an incorrect term here. Green olives are unripe olives, black olives are ripe olives. Unripe olives contain very high levels of oleuropein, which is especially bitter and thus green olives cannot readily be eaten. Ripe olives have little, if any, of this compound. To make green olives edible, they have to be cured (typically using a lye-based process for speed, but can be done with plain water over a longer period of time) to remove the oleuropein, and thus making them edible. After curing, they are typically kept in a salty brine to extend their shelf life. Black olives do not need the curing process, but can be brined in either a salty water brine, or oil, or no brine at all via pasteurization.
    - drone 9y ago
      I realized I left a few questions unanswered here, and for completeness' sake: * Green olives can also be fermented (i.e. w/ yeast and bacteria, instead of using a lye- or pure-water 'cure'), to remove the bitter compound, and would thus be "pickled" in the traditional sense. These olives are not as green or firm as lye-cured olives. * Why not pasteurize green olives, if you can do it with black olives? You can, but the heat would cause the green olives to become mushier, people expect green olives to be firm, and ripe (black olives) to be a bit soft. Soft green olives often are less desirable, outside of some specific preparations. (I.e. 'Greek-style' "crushed" olives.) * Can you ferment, and thus pickle, black olives? Sure, why the heck not? Many Greek styles of black olives are done this way. * Yes, you can pack cured green olives in oil too, like black olives. Anything to reduce the bacterial and oxygen activity in the olives will help to preserve them.
      - stickfigure 9y ago
        Thank you! May I ask for an encore? What makes Castelvetrano olives so distinct and delicious? They are almost always a vibrant green with an apple-like crunchiness. To me this is like a completely different fruit. Is this just the genetic stock or are they prepared differently? I put my due diligence into internet research, without satisfaction. Would love to hear from the experts.
        drone 9y ago
        No worries =) Castelvetrano is one of those interesting olives for me, personally, in that I'm not a big fan since I prefer the richer, earthier flavor of the slow-cured (dry-cured are my favorite!) olives, but my wife loves them most of all b/c she doesn't like the earthier olive flavor. So, it's one part plant, one part process that gives them their unique flavor. The olive its self has a bright, crisp flavor with a good buttery profile. The process used for these is an extreme example of the lye-cured process, where they are lye-cured for just a few hours, and then soaked in fresh, cold water for at most a couple of days (changing the water every few hours). Basically, one of the most minimal processing of the olive world. After this, they are generally kept in a lower-salinity brine than other olives, to avoid the "salty bite" of a standard olive. So, the Castelvetrano olives are really an exemplar of how lye can be used to great advantage in curing olives, to create a unique flavor profile.
pyre 9y ago
It's at the end: > The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. > "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would tolerate that, physically—you couldn’t do that with a glass jar." > Eventually, California olives came back. In cans.
- Vindicis 9y ago
  Just to nitpick that point in the article. You don't need high temperature. As long as you bring the contents to 100 celsius, all you need is time. They use what's called an f-value to determine at what temp and for how long they need to take. The 1 f-value is defined as 1 minutes at 121 cel. Normally for canned goods that will be stored at 25 celsius and lower, they aim for a 4 to 5.5 f-value. So, at 100 degress, to achieve that score would take 8.5 to 12 hours. Whereas at 121 it would only take 4 to 5.5 minutes. Now, what the texture and taste would be like after 8 hours at 100 I leave as an exercise to the reader.
  - Indy_Dh 9y ago
    This is a dangerous misconception. Bringing botulism spores to 100 Celsius will not kill them, the spores can survive indefinitely at these temperatures. This is literally the reason pressure canning was invented, to heat the liquid to a higher temperature such that botulism spores are destroyed.
    - Vindicis 9y ago
      No, no it doesn't. You two clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I don't how to explain it any simpler than I already have. Depending on the bacteria and the storage conditions of the canned goods, you might need to hold it to a higher f-value. For instance, canned goods that will be stored in a 25-40C range target an f-value of 12 to 15. The higher the temperature you use, the less time you need. And vice versa. It's a misconception that certain bacteria can only be killed at high heat. Quickly, sure. But, as long as you target the correct f-values, all you need is 100C. And a lot of time.
jaclaz 9y ago
Nahh, the explanation is there, alright, though nothing supports the "240 degrees" theory (I have to presume they would be Fahrenheit degrees, i.e. 116-120 Celsius, and of course glass can bear that alright): >The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would tolerate that, physically—you couldn’t do that with a glass jar." Eventually, California olives came back. In cans. Even if it was 240 Celsius (which I doubt), glass can bear it just fine.
- pyre 9y ago
  > of course glass can bear that alright Perhaps not in the 1920s though.
  - dpark 9y ago
    Basic glass formulas haven't changed since long before the 1920s. Even borosilicate glass has been around since the late 1800s.
  - Symbiote 9y ago
    The setting point of jam is 105°C, so only very slightly cooler. If I remember correctly from making jam with my mother, it's important to pour the really hot jam into the heated jars to ensure everything stays sterile -- so the jam going into the jars is around 105°C.
    - sitharus 9y ago
      That's correct, but I've seen so many recipes on the internet that let the jam cool so the jars don't crack. That's ok for making a small amount to eat quickly, but for proper preservation you really need to do it hot.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - Symbiote 9y ago

Because in the 20s cans could be pasteurized to a higher temperature than jars could. Black olives in jars were killing people with botulism. Green olives are pickled, so didn't require such high pasteurization temperatures.

serg_chernata 9y ago
Thanks, and what was the reason for pickling one kind of olives but not the other?
- mamon 9y ago
  Green and black olives are one and the same species, but green olives are unripe so they are still growing on a tree, but black ones are ripe so they start falling down by themselves and you can pick them up from the ground, which is much easier.
  - weaksauce 9y ago
    The article states that she had a recipe for artificially ripening the olives. I don't think the olives are picked ripe.
- drone 9y ago
  "Pickling" may be an incorrect term here. Green olives are unripe olives, black olives are ripe olives. Unripe olives contain very high levels of oleuropein, which is especially bitter and thus green olives cannot readily be eaten. Ripe olives have little, if any, of this compound. To make green olives edible, they have to be cured (typically using a lye-based process for speed, but can be done with plain water over a longer period of time) to remove the oleuropein, and thus making them edible. After curing, they are typically kept in a salty brine to extend their shelf life. Black olives do not need the curing process, but can be brined in either a salty water brine, or oil, or no brine at all via pasteurization.
  - drone 9y ago
    I realized I left a few questions unanswered here, and for completeness' sake: * Green olives can also be fermented (i.e. w/ yeast and bacteria, instead of using a lye- or pure-water 'cure'), to remove the bitter compound, and would thus be "pickled" in the traditional sense. These olives are not as green or firm as lye-cured olives. * Why not pasteurize green olives, if you can do it with black olives? You can, but the heat would cause the green olives to become mushier, people expect green olives to be firm, and ripe (black olives) to be a bit soft. Soft green olives often are less desirable, outside of some specific preparations. (I.e. 'Greek-style' "crushed" olives.) * Can you ferment, and thus pickle, black olives? Sure, why the heck not? Many Greek styles of black olives are done this way. * Yes, you can pack cured green olives in oil too, like black olives. Anything to reduce the bacterial and oxygen activity in the olives will help to preserve them.
    - stickfigure 9y ago
      Thank you! May I ask for an encore? What makes Castelvetrano olives so distinct and delicious? They are almost always a vibrant green with an apple-like crunchiness. To me this is like a completely different fruit. Is this just the genetic stock or are they prepared differently? I put my due diligence into internet research, without satisfaction. Would love to hear from the experts.
      - drone 9y ago
        No worries =) Castelvetrano is one of those interesting olives for me, personally, in that I'm not a big fan since I prefer the richer, earthier flavor of the slow-cured (dry-cured are my favorite!) olives, but my wife loves them most of all b/c she doesn't like the earthier olive flavor. So, it's one part plant, one part process that gives them their unique flavor. The olive its self has a bright, crisp flavor with a good buttery profile. The process used for these is an extreme example of the lye-cured process, where they are lye-cured for just a few hours, and then soaked in fresh, cold water for at most a couple of days (changing the water every few hours). Basically, one of the most minimal processing of the olive world. After this, they are generally kept in a lower-salinity brine than other olives, to avoid the "salty bite" of a standard olive. So, the Castelvetrano olives are really an exemplar of how lye can be used to great advantage in curing olives, to create a unique flavor profile.

pyre 9y ago

It's at the end: > The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. > "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would tolerate that, physically—you couldn’t do that with a glass jar." > Eventually, California olives came back. In cans.

Vindicis 9y ago
Just to nitpick that point in the article. You don't need high temperature. As long as you bring the contents to 100 celsius, all you need is time. They use what's called an f-value to determine at what temp and for how long they need to take. The 1 f-value is defined as 1 minutes at 121 cel. Normally for canned goods that will be stored at 25 celsius and lower, they aim for a 4 to 5.5 f-value. So, at 100 degress, to achieve that score would take 8.5 to 12 hours. Whereas at 121 it would only take 4 to 5.5 minutes. Now, what the texture and taste would be like after 8 hours at 100 I leave as an exercise to the reader.
- Indy_Dh 9y ago
  This is a dangerous misconception. Bringing botulism spores to 100 Celsius will not kill them, the spores can survive indefinitely at these temperatures. This is literally the reason pressure canning was invented, to heat the liquid to a higher temperature such that botulism spores are destroyed.
  - Vindicis 9y ago
    No, no it doesn't. You two clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I don't how to explain it any simpler than I already have. Depending on the bacteria and the storage conditions of the canned goods, you might need to hold it to a higher f-value. For instance, canned goods that will be stored in a 25-40C range target an f-value of 12 to 15. The higher the temperature you use, the less time you need. And vice versa. It's a misconception that certain bacteria can only be killed at high heat. Quickly, sure. But, as long as you target the correct f-values, all you need is 100C. And a lot of time.

jaclaz 9y ago

Nahh, the explanation is there, alright, though nothing supports the "240 degrees" theory (I have to presume they would be Fahrenheit degrees, i.e. 116-120 Celsius, and of course glass can bear that alright): >The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would tolerate that, physically—you couldn’t do that with a glass jar." Eventually, California olives came back. In cans. Even if it was 240 Celsius (which I doubt), glass can bear it just fine.

pyre 9y ago
> of course glass can bear that alright Perhaps not in the 1920s though.
- dpark 9y ago
  Basic glass formulas haven't changed since long before the 1920s. Even borosilicate glass has been around since the late 1800s.
- Symbiote 9y ago
  The setting point of jam is 105°C, so only very slightly cooler. If I remember correctly from making jam with my mother, it's important to pour the really hot jam into the heated jars to ensure everything stays sterile -- so the jam going into the jars is around 105°C.
  - sitharus 9y ago
    That's correct, but I've seen so many recipes on the internet that let the jam cool so the jars don't crack. That's ok for making a small amount to eat quickly, but for proper preservation you really need to do it hot.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Symbiote 9y ago