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This tabs vs spaces thing is a recurring joke and source of conflict on HBO's Silicon Valley, and I always thought having a raging debate over tabs and spaces w

This tabs vs spaces thing is a recurring joke and source of conflict on HBO's Silicon Valley, and I always thought having a raging debate over tabs and spaces was one of the less realistic things about the show. But what I'm hearing now is that my use of emacs has just left me out of touch with the really tedious stuff other people sometimes have to deal with.

adambyrtek 9y ago
Any proper IDE/editor has auto-indentation nowadays, so there's really nothing special about Emacs anymore. Obviously even with auto-indentation you still have to agree on the right convention for a given project. As with most code style debates, it usually doesn't matter that much one way or another as long as you make a call and keep it consistent across the project.
- dgfgfdagasdfgfa 9y ago
  Ehh, I'd say emacs has a minor edge in that tab is a command to indent to the correct level, not to insert characters. I.e., you can also use a single `tab` on an over-indented line to correct indentation. Your point stands, of course.
  - terminalcommand 9y ago
    Most emacs users would use ctrl-i instead of tabs or spaces I imagine, at least I do it like that. It is much easier to type. Emacs still has a quirk that stands out :)
    - marcus_holmes 9y ago
      Only an Emacs veteran would say that ctrl-i is easier to type than Tab ;)
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    > I'd say emacs has a minor edge in that tab is a command to indent to the correct level, not to insert characters. I've had this in basic code editors for... 10 years or so? It's hardly an emacs thing.
    - Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
      To be fair, this applies to vi/vim as well. I hear it all the time. People saying things like "I use vi/vim instead of an IDE because I can do X" where X is a feature that every IDE worth using has had for 10 years. I've literally had someone say that they use vi/vim because it does syntax highlighting. What were they using before? Notepad? gedit? Even gedit has syntax highlighting. "Oh, I use this magical vim plugin that lets me hit this magical key combination and all my code gets automatically formatted." Yeah, but Visual Studio, PyCharm, Eclipse, and basically any other IDE do that out of the box. No plugins necessary. I don't think I've ever seen someone describe a feature that vi/vim/emacs has that an IDE doesn't (EDIT: Other than the fact that every *nix system is going to have vi, but that's just an argument for knowing how to use it, not one for preferring it over an IDE if one is available). It's like iPhone versus Android about five years ago, where the iPhone fanboys/girls would praise Apple for their innovation for implementing features Android had over a year prior.
      - teddyh 9y ago
        > I don't think I've ever seen someone describe a feature that vi/vim/emacs has that an IDE doesn't Emacs can seamlessly access files over ssh, ftp and/or sudo. Emacs lets me add custom hook commands to run before a file is saved (to check a file’s syntax using an external command), and after it’s saved (to signal reloading of the file to the relevant process). Emacs also includes my mail reader, my diary, my organizer, a spreadsheet, an stack-based algebraic calculator, etc. but those may be unfair comparisons. :) Note: All of the above are part of the built-in functionality of Emacs. Third-party extensions can of course do anything.
        abritinthebay 9y ago
        There's an argument that Emacs is a collection of extensions to lisp that happens to include a text editor
mercer 9y ago
It's a little exaggerated on the show, but I've definitely experienced pretty heated discussions on the issue!
- positivecomment 9y ago
  "Exaggerated" as he actually voices his extreme views. Many people look down on the people from the other camp but never actually say anything to not sound ridiculous.
  - dgfgfdagasdfgfa 9y ago
    Not to mention, ruining personal relationships over bikeshedding is rightfully considered utterly toxic behavior in the real world.
- iak8god 9y ago
  Well, I'm Team Space for sure, but I just think the environment should take care of that. I mean, who sets up their IDE so it inserts tab characters. Alternatively who goes about indenting their code by hitting spacebar multiple times?

adambyrtek 9y ago

Any proper IDE/editor has auto-indentation nowadays, so there's really nothing special about Emacs anymore. Obviously even with auto-indentation you still have to agree on the right convention for a given project. As with most code style debates, it usually doesn't matter that much one way or another as long as you make a call and keep it consistent across the project.

dgfgfdagasdfgfa 9y ago
Ehh, I'd say emacs has a minor edge in that tab is a command to indent to the correct level, not to insert characters. I.e., you can also use a single `tab` on an over-indented line to correct indentation. Your point stands, of course.
- terminalcommand 9y ago
  Most emacs users would use ctrl-i instead of tabs or spaces I imagine, at least I do it like that. It is much easier to type. Emacs still has a quirk that stands out :)
  - marcus_holmes 9y ago
    Only an Emacs veteran would say that ctrl-i is easier to type than Tab ;)
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  > I'd say emacs has a minor edge in that tab is a command to indent to the correct level, not to insert characters. I've had this in basic code editors for... 10 years or so? It's hardly an emacs thing.
  - Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
    To be fair, this applies to vi/vim as well. I hear it all the time. People saying things like "I use vi/vim instead of an IDE because I can do X" where X is a feature that every IDE worth using has had for 10 years. I've literally had someone say that they use vi/vim because it does syntax highlighting. What were they using before? Notepad? gedit? Even gedit has syntax highlighting. "Oh, I use this magical vim plugin that lets me hit this magical key combination and all my code gets automatically formatted." Yeah, but Visual Studio, PyCharm, Eclipse, and basically any other IDE do that out of the box. No plugins necessary. I don't think I've ever seen someone describe a feature that vi/vim/emacs has that an IDE doesn't (EDIT: Other than the fact that every *nix system is going to have vi, but that's just an argument for knowing how to use it, not one for preferring it over an IDE if one is available). It's like iPhone versus Android about five years ago, where the iPhone fanboys/girls would praise Apple for their innovation for implementing features Android had over a year prior.
    - teddyh 9y ago
      > I don't think I've ever seen someone describe a feature that vi/vim/emacs has that an IDE doesn't Emacs can seamlessly access files over ssh, ftp and/or sudo. Emacs lets me add custom hook commands to run before a file is saved (to check a file’s syntax using an external command), and after it’s saved (to signal reloading of the file to the relevant process). Emacs also includes my mail reader, my diary, my organizer, a spreadsheet, an stack-based algebraic calculator, etc. but those may be unfair comparisons. :) Note: All of the above are part of the built-in functionality of Emacs. Third-party extensions can of course do anything.
      - abritinthebay 9y ago
        There's an argument that Emacs is a collection of extensions to lisp that happens to include a text editor

mercer 9y ago

It's a little exaggerated on the show, but I've definitely experienced pretty heated discussions on the issue!

positivecomment 9y ago
"Exaggerated" as he actually voices his extreme views. Many people look down on the people from the other camp but never actually say anything to not sound ridiculous.
- dgfgfdagasdfgfa 9y ago
  Not to mention, ruining personal relationships over bikeshedding is rightfully considered utterly toxic behavior in the real world.
iak8god 9y ago
Well, I'm Team Space for sure, but I just think the environment should take care of that. I mean, who sets up their IDE so it inserts tab characters. Alternatively who goes about indenting their code by hitting spacebar multiple times?