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Okay. There are already lots of discussions on politics, so I will contribute something different. I have spent considerable amount of time in China and Singap

Okay. There are already lots of discussions on politics, so I will contribute something different. I have spent considerable amount of time in China and Singapore (former British colony). I've also travelled to HK. When I read this kind of articles, I can see how people make decisions that they think are perfectly fine only to find out later that someone else thinks drastically different. Why do the Chinese leaders and UK leaders think so differently? Why do Chinese leaders prioritize sovereignty over prosperity? Is it because of politics? I think not. It's more to do with culture and history. China has had a long history of being caught in endless cycles of being divided and united. So much that it became the opening sentence of popular novel "Three Kingdoms" long before optimum war. If there's one thing that Chinese people really hate, is to see their homeland being taken away and families separated. I don't think cultures where people did not have this kind of experience can have this feeling. Contrary to popular belief, Chinese (Han) people are never interested in conquering foreign lands. They just want to take back what used to belong.

ajmurmann 9y ago
I think what might be unique is that the idea of China with pretty much the same borders has persisted for so long. Reinforcing that idea also has been a strong goal for several Chinese leaders over the centuries. Other countries have been divided, expanded, absorbed etc. and seem to have been much less stable in their borders. The idea of Germany for example is very young in comparison and the territory has obviously give through massive changes. It's incredible that China has persisted so insanely long without much change.
xiaoma 9y ago
If you're speaking of China as in the PRC, the history goes back less than a century and its territory has only expanded. If you're speaking of the region, then in reality Europe has a history of being even more divided. Nobody wants to see their homeland being taken away or families separated. >"They just want to take back what used to belong." How is this different from various historical German ideologies that have centered around "taking back" Greater Germany including the former holdings of the Holy Roman Empire or Prussia? Consider that Otto von Bismarck was still alive when Taiwan was part of Japan. The desire to fully restore the borders of the Qing is completely understandable and even laudable from the Chinese perspective. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to have a peaceful world if every national or ethnic group feels justified in using the historical borders its ancestors once held as a bar for what they need to "take back", by force if necessary.
- paradite 9y ago
  On the specific issue of HK, it's been part of China for a very long time and only taken away recently. Of course we are not talking about taking back European territories that used to belong to some dynasties briefly. Just those stable ones since Ming and Qing dynasty. As another comment pointed out, although China has been divided many times, the geographic boundaries did not change much, unlike Europe. Taiwan is more debatable because it was separated from China geographically, culturally and economically for very long periods of time.
  - xiaoma 9y ago
    The Qing Dynasty ended over 130 years ago.
  - yongjik 9y ago
    > ...although China has been divided many times, the geographic boundaries did not change much, unlike Europe. I'm not sure I could call this as "not changing much". http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/ching-dynasty-map.cfm.html http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/ching-dynasty...
    - paradite 9y ago
      It is actually much complicated than those maps showing only one governing body. Actually those maps show precisely the periods of unity (Han, Tang, Yuan, Ming, Qing) where only one major power governs, as well as the periods of divisions where foreign ethnicity capture a sizable portion of China. In latter case, the map fails to capture the lost boundary, like in this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynasty_(1115%E2%80%931234) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynasty_(1115%E2%80%931234... where Jin dynasty is in control of majority of the territory and the map only shows the defeated Northern and Southern Sung dynasty. Actually the website that you quoted from also has the information: > brutal invaders drove the Chinese from their northern territory, forcing them to migrate south and establish a new capital city. http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/dynasty-sung.cfm.html http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/dynasty-sung....
blackbagboys 9y ago
Why do Chinese leaders prioritize sovereignty over prosperity? Is it because of politics? I think not. It's more to do with culture and history. China has had a long history of being caught in endless cycles of being divided and united. So much that it became the opening sentence of popular novel "Three Kingdoms" long before optimum war. If there's one thing that Chinese people really hate, is to see their homeland being taken away and families separated. I don't think cultures where people did not have this kind of experience can have this feeling. This is propagandistic pablum. The actual reason is that Hong Kong was a locus of independent political power and the structure of the CCP means any independent centers of power are existential threats to its own power. Therefore all centers of power that are not wholly subordinate to the CCP must be destroyed. Contrary to popular belief, Chinese (Han) people are never interested in conquering foreign lands. They just want to take back what used to belong. Try telling this to the Uighur, the Tibetans, the Vietnamese, the Mongols, the native Taiwanese...the Chinese have been just as aggressive and nakedly imperialistic as any other major world power.
- justicezyx 9y ago
  > This is propagandistic pablum. It's one person's propaganda but another's national pride. If you cannot recognize that and frame your argument accordingly, then you are bound to ask for unnecessary arguments. Is such belief from propaganda? Yes. Does it bear cultral root? Yes.
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    National pride is best served by facts, and in this case, there are plenty of facts to choose from.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

ajmurmann 9y ago

I think what might be unique is that the idea of China with pretty much the same borders has persisted for so long. Reinforcing that idea also has been a strong goal for several Chinese leaders over the centuries. Other countries have been divided, expanded, absorbed etc. and seem to have been much less stable in their borders. The idea of Germany for example is very young in comparison and the territory has obviously give through massive changes. It's incredible that China has persisted so insanely long without much change.

xiaoma 9y ago

If you're speaking of China as in the PRC, the history goes back less than a century and its territory has only expanded. If you're speaking of the region, then in reality Europe has a history of being even more divided. Nobody wants to see their homeland being taken away or families separated. >"They just want to take back what used to belong." How is this different from various historical German ideologies that have centered around "taking back" Greater Germany including the former holdings of the Holy Roman Empire or Prussia? Consider that Otto von Bismarck was still alive when Taiwan was part of Japan. The desire to fully restore the borders of the Qing is completely understandable and even laudable from the Chinese perspective. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to have a peaceful world if every national or ethnic group feels justified in using the historical borders its ancestors once held as a bar for what they need to "take back", by force if necessary.

paradite 9y ago
On the specific issue of HK, it's been part of China for a very long time and only taken away recently. Of course we are not talking about taking back European territories that used to belong to some dynasties briefly. Just those stable ones since Ming and Qing dynasty. As another comment pointed out, although China has been divided many times, the geographic boundaries did not change much, unlike Europe. Taiwan is more debatable because it was separated from China geographically, culturally and economically for very long periods of time.
- xiaoma 9y ago
  The Qing Dynasty ended over 130 years ago.
- yongjik 9y ago
  > ...although China has been divided many times, the geographic boundaries did not change much, unlike Europe. I'm not sure I could call this as "not changing much". http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/ching-dynasty-map.cfm.html http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/ching-dynasty...
  - paradite 9y ago
    It is actually much complicated than those maps showing only one governing body. Actually those maps show precisely the periods of unity (Han, Tang, Yuan, Ming, Qing) where only one major power governs, as well as the periods of divisions where foreign ethnicity capture a sizable portion of China. In latter case, the map fails to capture the lost boundary, like in this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynasty_(1115%E2%80%931234) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynasty_(1115%E2%80%931234... where Jin dynasty is in control of majority of the territory and the map only shows the defeated Northern and Southern Sung dynasty. Actually the website that you quoted from also has the information: > brutal invaders drove the Chinese from their northern territory, forcing them to migrate south and establish a new capital city. http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/dynasty-sung.cfm.html http://archive.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/dynasty-sung....

blackbagboys 9y ago

Why do Chinese leaders prioritize sovereignty over prosperity? Is it because of politics? I think not. It's more to do with culture and history. China has had a long history of being caught in endless cycles of being divided and united. So much that it became the opening sentence of popular novel "Three Kingdoms" long before optimum war. If there's one thing that Chinese people really hate, is to see their homeland being taken away and families separated. I don't think cultures where people did not have this kind of experience can have this feeling. This is propagandistic pablum. The actual reason is that Hong Kong was a locus of independent political power and the structure of the CCP means any independent centers of power are existential threats to its own power. Therefore all centers of power that are not wholly subordinate to the CCP must be destroyed. Contrary to popular belief, Chinese (Han) people are never interested in conquering foreign lands. They just want to take back what used to belong. Try telling this to the Uighur, the Tibetans, the Vietnamese, the Mongols, the native Taiwanese...the Chinese have been just as aggressive and nakedly imperialistic as any other major world power.

justicezyx 9y ago
> This is propagandistic pablum. It's one person's propaganda but another's national pride. If you cannot recognize that and frame your argument accordingly, then you are bound to ask for unnecessary arguments. Is such belief from propaganda? Yes. Does it bear cultral root? Yes.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  National pride is best served by facts, and in this case, there are plenty of facts to choose from.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]