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Eh, more like: 3) "This person is struggling, we can't help them in ways that are too paternalistic or agency-denying, because that will ultimately just end up

Eh, more like: 3) "This person is struggling, we can't help them in ways that are too paternalistic or agency-denying, because that will ultimately just end up harming them". E.g. You wouldn't tell your child that his economic outcomes are completely unconnected to his own choices or work ethic. If a kid has trouble at a task, we don't just tell them that the task is stacked against them and that they can do nothing to alleviate their failure. Telling a kid that over and over would border on child abuse. Yet some people seem to think that telling the poor this overall - that they have no control, that their choices mean nothing, that the locus of control is 100% external to them - is somehow good. It's bizarre.

Mz 9y ago
Actually, it would be more like telling your child with ADHD "You just need to study harder at school and the beatings will continue until morale improves. No, we won't give you ADHD meds nor hire you a tutor. Buck up and grow a spine, you whiner." See also my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14590486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14590486 Your remarks are incredibly ignorant and are being downvoted because it is the sort of attitude that allows privileged peoples to wash their hands of dealing with very real systemic problems that are an excess burden for the people whose lives come so unraveled that they wind up homeless.
- Banthum 9y ago
  So you think of every poor person as having a fundamental disability comparable to a medically-diagnosed case of ADHD. This is flatly, verifiably wrong, as well as reprehensibly paternalistic and self-indulgent. And all this after I specifically talked about mental illness in my original post.
  - Mz 9y ago
    We were specifically talking about homeless people, not poor people. I am currently homeless and have had a class on Homelessness and Public Policy. I know whereof I speak here. I don't disagree with some of your assertions that we should treat such people as if they have agency and can make choices. But your framing is incredibly hostile and in the vein of "We don't need to do anything for such people because they made these choices and did this to themselves." No one makes choices in a vacuum and, currently, an awful lot of people have no good choices available to them. Blaming them so you can wash your hands of responsibility is rather ugly behavior. You don't personally have to do anything for someone like me, but posting comments on a forum where you are basically publically advocating that no one should do anything for them -- well, I feel pretty well entitled to rebut that. Feel free to do nothing and feel that my problems are all my fault and I am just not trying hard enough. But if you post that to HN, I can rebut it, and likely will if I see it.
anigbrowl 9y ago
You wouldn't tell your child that, but nor would you toss them out on the street if they were having difficulty absorbing the lessons because as a parent you're responsible for their well-being and you have a duty (social/cultural rather than legal, but still) to create the conditions within which they can thrive.
deleted 9y ago
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Mz 9y ago

Actually, it would be more like telling your child with ADHD "You just need to study harder at school and the beatings will continue until morale improves. No, we won't give you ADHD meds nor hire you a tutor. Buck up and grow a spine, you whiner." See also my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14590486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14590486 Your remarks are incredibly ignorant and are being downvoted because it is the sort of attitude that allows privileged peoples to wash their hands of dealing with very real systemic problems that are an excess burden for the people whose lives come so unraveled that they wind up homeless.

Banthum 9y ago
So you think of every poor person as having a fundamental disability comparable to a medically-diagnosed case of ADHD. This is flatly, verifiably wrong, as well as reprehensibly paternalistic and self-indulgent. And all this after I specifically talked about mental illness in my original post.
- Mz 9y ago
  We were specifically talking about homeless people, not poor people. I am currently homeless and have had a class on Homelessness and Public Policy. I know whereof I speak here. I don't disagree with some of your assertions that we should treat such people as if they have agency and can make choices. But your framing is incredibly hostile and in the vein of "We don't need to do anything for such people because they made these choices and did this to themselves." No one makes choices in a vacuum and, currently, an awful lot of people have no good choices available to them. Blaming them so you can wash your hands of responsibility is rather ugly behavior. You don't personally have to do anything for someone like me, but posting comments on a forum where you are basically publically advocating that no one should do anything for them -- well, I feel pretty well entitled to rebut that. Feel free to do nothing and feel that my problems are all my fault and I am just not trying hard enough. But if you post that to HN, I can rebut it, and likely will if I see it.

anigbrowl 9y ago

You wouldn't tell your child that, but nor would you toss them out on the street if they were having difficulty absorbing the lessons because as a parent you're responsible for their well-being and you have a duty (social/cultural rather than legal, but still) to create the conditions within which they can thrive.

deleted 9y ago

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