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I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances in many cases, yes. Why is it so unacceptable to think that they are simply humans, like you and me, with agency a

I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances in many cases, yes. Why is it so unacceptable to think that they are simply humans, like you and me, with agency and power over their own choices, with responsibility for the outcomes of their choices, who are simply choosing to do a thing that you and I believe to be a really bad choices? A pattern of such choices is labeled "bad work ethic" but at the end of the day, bad work ethic is just a long series of individual choices to do something besides working.

gnaritas 9y ago
It's not unacceptable, it's just incorrect and frankly vile.
rayiner 9y ago
Calling something a "choice" really does not capture the complexity of what it means to be human. "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Romans 7:15.
- kamaal 9y ago
  Yet if you make a decision, its for all practical purposes a 'choice'. There is generally a misalignment between your value system and the output your are expecting. In simple terms its called 'Hypocrisy'.
Mz 9y ago
bad work ethic is just a long series of individual choices to do something besides working. http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-wrong-metrics.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-wrong-me...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
  - Mz 9y ago
    Based on karma. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14540236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14540236
kelnos 9y ago
I'm sure for some small percentage of homeless/poor people, you're right in that they've made bad choices and that's how they've ended up there. But if you're suggesting that this phenomenon is somehow common, then you need to back that up, since it flies in the face of prevailing research on the subject.
- taurath 9y ago
  Its a bit like arguing causality and determinism, but how does a person come to make bad choices, if the path before them, their past experience, and their current environment does not precipitate them to make that choice? One would have to go deep into philosophy, but still will find competing answers - when does the decision become "morally" wrong, or become the fault of the person?
  - Banthum 9y ago
    I feel this is irrelevant for this discussion, because none of what I or anyone else is arguing is that "it's their fault they're poor so screw them" as so many people here seem to want to conclude. All I said was: Some people have bad work ethic. This means people they decide to not work when they should work, which causes them to end up in poverty. Therefore, to reduce poverty, part of our strategy should be doing things that improve work ethic (in addition to doing other things to solve mental illness, etc). Nothing about that implies or requires any conclusion about whose absolute fault it is that some people are poor. And it can't anyway, because as you've noted there is no objective answer to such a moral question.
    - BoiledCabbage 9y ago
      It's incredible that for someone stressing work-ethic and the implicit "responsibility" associated with them, you won't even take responsibility for your own words. In multiple child comments you've now claimed things like what you say here: > All I said was: Some people have bad work ethic No, that's not "All you said". The proof is right there in your original comment. You actually said > a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. and > Work ethic is a huge part of the problem, And the point people keep making to you is that this is false. And I can't speak for others, but the reason why it bothers me so much to see people repeating it is because so frequently the people I've seen who are the loudest at saying it and repeat it the most, often have just as bad and often worse "moral failings". I don't know you, and I won't judge you from what you've posted here - however I do have to say that the fact you keep attempting to shirk from and minimize away from your own comments isn't exactly breaking that trend to my eyes. Society is complex - and the claim that the reason the poor are poor is mainly/mostly/primarily due to moral failings is flat out false.
taurath 9y ago
I think you need to gain a better understanding about how different perspectives and mindsets can change what a person does, and what a person thinks, and how the the two can be in direct competition. A depressed person is simply not "choosing" to feel the way they do. Every single thought in their head could be marshaling their instinctual brain to resist the downward spiral but they could still lie in bed all day. Not to say they don't have agency, but some do have a LOT less than others. Some people can go their entire lives without having a crisis of agency or wresting power over their own choices, and some can be battling to do what they intend to do on a daily basis. People have "responsibility" for the outcomes that happen for them. We still lock up people who murder, or steal from others, even though it can easily be argued that people don't do those things if not in a bad mental state (desperation, mental anguish, etc). But don't conflate that responsibility with full healthy agency and bad morals. We should instead focus on the outcome we desire - which in my opinion should be to reduce the amount of suffering people go through, and to have a society that takes care of its most vulnerable. If you disagree and think that everyone should fend for themselves and might makes right, I'd say the person with "bad work ethic" has better morals.

gnaritas 9y ago

It's not unacceptable, it's just incorrect and frankly vile.

rayiner 9y ago

Calling something a "choice" really does not capture the complexity of what it means to be human. "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Romans 7:15.

kamaal 9y ago
Yet if you make a decision, its for all practical purposes a 'choice'. There is generally a misalignment between your value system and the output your are expecting. In simple terms its called 'Hypocrisy'.

Mz 9y ago

bad work ethic is just a long series of individual choices to do something besides working. http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-wrong-metrics.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-wrong-me...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
- Mz 9y ago
  Based on karma. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14540236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14540236

kelnos 9y ago

I'm sure for some small percentage of homeless/poor people, you're right in that they've made bad choices and that's how they've ended up there. But if you're suggesting that this phenomenon is somehow common, then you need to back that up, since it flies in the face of prevailing research on the subject.

taurath 9y ago
Its a bit like arguing causality and determinism, but how does a person come to make bad choices, if the path before them, their past experience, and their current environment does not precipitate them to make that choice? One would have to go deep into philosophy, but still will find competing answers - when does the decision become "morally" wrong, or become the fault of the person?
- Banthum 9y ago
  I feel this is irrelevant for this discussion, because none of what I or anyone else is arguing is that "it's their fault they're poor so screw them" as so many people here seem to want to conclude. All I said was: Some people have bad work ethic. This means people they decide to not work when they should work, which causes them to end up in poverty. Therefore, to reduce poverty, part of our strategy should be doing things that improve work ethic (in addition to doing other things to solve mental illness, etc). Nothing about that implies or requires any conclusion about whose absolute fault it is that some people are poor. And it can't anyway, because as you've noted there is no objective answer to such a moral question.
  - BoiledCabbage 9y ago
    It's incredible that for someone stressing work-ethic and the implicit "responsibility" associated with them, you won't even take responsibility for your own words. In multiple child comments you've now claimed things like what you say here: > All I said was: Some people have bad work ethic No, that's not "All you said". The proof is right there in your original comment. You actually said > a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. and > Work ethic is a huge part of the problem, And the point people keep making to you is that this is false. And I can't speak for others, but the reason why it bothers me so much to see people repeating it is because so frequently the people I've seen who are the loudest at saying it and repeat it the most, often have just as bad and often worse "moral failings". I don't know you, and I won't judge you from what you've posted here - however I do have to say that the fact you keep attempting to shirk from and minimize away from your own comments isn't exactly breaking that trend to my eyes. Society is complex - and the claim that the reason the poor are poor is mainly/mostly/primarily due to moral failings is flat out false.

taurath 9y ago

I think you need to gain a better understanding about how different perspectives and mindsets can change what a person does, and what a person thinks, and how the the two can be in direct competition. A depressed person is simply not "choosing" to feel the way they do. Every single thought in their head could be marshaling their instinctual brain to resist the downward spiral but they could still lie in bed all day. Not to say they don't have agency, but some do have a LOT less than others. Some people can go their entire lives without having a crisis of agency or wresting power over their own choices, and some can be battling to do what they intend to do on a daily basis. People have "responsibility" for the outcomes that happen for them. We still lock up people who murder, or steal from others, even though it can easily be argued that people don't do those things if not in a bad mental state (desperation, mental anguish, etc). But don't conflate that responsibility with full healthy agency and bad morals. We should instead focus on the outcome we desire - which in my opinion should be to reduce the amount of suffering people go through, and to have a society that takes care of its most vulnerable. If you disagree and think that everyone should fend for themselves and might makes right, I'd say the person with "bad work ethic" has better morals.