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This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. Honestly, there are pro

This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. Honestly, there are probably millions of people who pull themselves together like this - it's just they end up working regular jobs like maintenance work or burger flipping that aren't as inspirational. The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down on your luck (but hard-working and reasonably intelligent) (2) being stuck in a poverty loop due to mental illness, criminal record, or countless other complex factors. Problem (1) is something a lot of HN readers can relate to, especially in their early twenties. Hence, the popularity of this article. Problem (2) however is the much bigger problem. Unfortunately, what this guy did is only marginally useful in coming up with solutions to that problem. All that said, I'm sure he's a pretty cool guy.

kilroy123 9y ago
I agree completely. My sister is a bad drug addict and an alcoholic. She would be homeless if she didn't live with my dad. We're also pretty sure now she also has a serious mental disorder as well. I doubt she'll ever hold down a job again in her life. Even if she gets clean.
Mz 9y ago
someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. And capacity. Many people on the street have serious health problems or other obstacles to productivity. I lack neither intelligence nor a work ethic, but I do have health problems. I have been homeless 5.5 years, though I blog, do freelance work, etc. Edit: You also need opportunity. Being homeless can be a huge barrier to opportunity, both in practical terms and due to stigma. People don't want to hire homeless people.
- Swizec 9y ago
  Honest question: why don't you charge enough for your freelance work so you wouldn't be homeless?
  - Mz 9y ago
    When I work, I often make more than $20/hour. Not always, but often. But I am not always able to put in the hours, due in part to my health problems and in part to logistical issues from being homeless. I also have trouble promoting myself, in part because I am homeless so people online don't take me seriously, but in part because I am a woman, so a lot of people didn't want to take me seriously even when I had an apartment. Plus, my student loan is being paid off this week. With that paid off, the odds of me getting off the street start going up. There are plenty of articles on how much of a burden student loans can be in the US. So google it if you can't fathom how that matters.
    - jameskegel 9y ago
      Gender and home situation are two things not conveyed over the internet; I don't think this stigma is legitimately a risk. The fact is you're propagating that information, which is a choice.
      - Mz 9y ago
        Given that I am the highest ranked woman on Hacker News, I think you are clearly in error. Historically, women have not been warmly welcomed here and not taken as seriously as the men. And if you can't admit your gender for fear of discrimination, that closes doors in terms of business. The men are never advised to hide their gender. Yet people seem to think that's an actual solution for a woman. I can't fathom how on earth anyone can say that and not realize they are just reinforcing sexism in an extreme and horrible manner. Also, it seriously doesn't work to tell me "there is no stigma -- all you have to do is hide those facts about yourself." If there is no stigma, why on earth would I need to hide them? Or to blame me for admitting that I am female and homeless. Hiding information about yourself is another burden to communicating and can complicate the hell out of attempts to accomplish anything when you need to work around certain things but are compelled to not mention them for fear of stigma.
        jameskegel 9y ago
        Your response has given me greater perspective to your situation, bless your heart.
- logicallee 9y ago
  >I have been homeless 5.5 years This is a huge personal revelation. I have happened to be in touch with the parent poster via HN and they are simply an intelligent, thoughtful, person with important and good opinions on whatever topics they write about. I hope you resolve your issues with housing soon. As you write, you have a lot of capacity for high-level work.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Thank you.
  - Diederich 9y ago
    Posted on her behalf: https://www.patreon.com/MicheleinCalifornia https://www.patreon.com/MicheleinCalifornia http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/ http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/
  - gpawl 9y ago
    FYI, Mz has been here sharing her perspective on homelessness for several years: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+mz+homeless https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+mz+ho...
    - logicallee 9y ago
      Thanks, though that doesn't change my impression of mz from our interaction, which I listed. Since we're on HN: I don't see how it's fundamentally different from people who fail for years to raise money, until they finally do. My interaction with GP is from not that long ago. They're a smart, clear writer and I hope they resolve their housing situation soon. Then, if they ever want to do a startup they'll be better at it than most people, based on my interaction. They've also studied GIS, though I'm not sure if they want to work with it or in a different field. I am confident they can resolve their housing issue and I believe in them. By the way Elon Musk lived in an office and took showers at a YMCA.[1] That meets the definition of homeless. If you want a chance to back the next elon musk, invest in whatever mz does whenever they're ready to take money (though I'm not sure if they have any such intentions - but surely there's a reason they're on this site). mz, I hope this reply is not out of place and again, I hope you resolve your housing issue soon. I am basing my opinion of you based on an interaction with you and based your writing, which is all anyone gets if someone sends a pitch deck, emails, or business plan. you might have huge difficulty and perhaps its stretched for years but I believe you will go through it based on your talent and abilities. you can do it. go. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+showers+ymca https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+showers+ymca
jopsen 9y ago
Problem (3) these stories don't scale.
bmpafa 9y ago
This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years & does a superlative job of telling their story in that sort of explanatory way (not judgmental or absolving) that HN readers seem to appreciate. https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-City/dp/0553447432 https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-City/... (excerpt of the book here: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/08/forced-out http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/08/forced-out)
- Banthum 9y ago
  I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not coming to work, randomly. Or he comes in later and later each day, arriving hours late. Or he takes breaks that extend to hours long. Work ethic is a huge part of the problem, and the constant denial that many poor people (not all) do have everything they need to lift themselves up, and simply choose not to do so, is itself a denial of their human agency and ensures that the policy/cultural changes that could lead them out of poverty are not made. Ultimately, it's staggeringly harmful to them. In the end the wealthy and the poor both have to make changes to end poverty. It's a team effort. It's not up to a rich savior class to come and fix the dirty people from the outside. (I'm convinced that many wealthy people don't understand this because they really can't imagine what a true lack of worth ethic looks like; they've just never been at close range with it for an extended period of time and had to face up to the fact that it is a real thing and it is harmful. Ultimately that's a consequence of the closed social bubbles we live in now; we just don't know the other classes because we're so isolated from them.)
  - mjevans 9y ago
rollingpebbles 9y ago
Doing badass things that don't scale got him attention that could be monetized to further bring himself and others up. Goodwill (the business value kind) is a vital component to rapidly scaling a venture. Things that scale come later.
cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
This is like complaining Ruby on Rails has a problem because you can't build iOS apps with it. It's a good story, and it inspires tons of people who are in bad situations, as well as people who are in good situations but are doing nothing with it. What more do you want? Solve global warming? Don't turn this into "you can't always win just because you work hard" trope. This is a beautiful story that inspires people and that itself is powerful.
startupdiscuss 9y ago
There is a form of #2 (a poverty trap) that afflicts people in category #1. This is probably the most easily "treatable" condition. Basically, you can be smart and motivated, but not have the resources (family, friends, money) to pull yourself together. You may not even have a computer, a car, or a house. You can't shave, let alone get a clean set of clothes or transport to an interview. You can't put together a resume and so on. This is sad because a few months of housing, internet, food, and basically time support could turn this person's life around. Of course, people who have mental illness or have paid their due for a crime and so on also deserve help. I am not arguing they don't. I just mean that it costs so little for so much good in the former case.
a3n 9y ago
> Problem (2) however is the much bigger problem. Unfortunately, what this guy did is only marginally useful in coming up with solutions to that problem. What this guy did was "Anything but what was keeping him down." And he's very fortunate that he was able to overcome his particular problem, addiction, on his own. The key to problem 2 is to a) Intervene with yourself, or b) Get help to intervene with yourself, or c) Be fortunate that a kind soul or community intervenes on your behalf. b) and especially c) are tough in today's developed, "don't look at them" world.
vinhboy 9y ago
The clarity of these kinds of comments on HN makes me so happy. In the Trump-era, it warms my heart to see there are still plenty of intelligent people who understand complex problems. I know this is a stupid, and almost patronizing comment from me, but seriously, at this point in our society, every shred of humanity is meaningful.
jobu 9y ago
Also this: "With some self-motivation and a lot of self-help books, I made the decision to stop taking drugs. ..." That quote made it seem like no big deal for him to stop using drugs, but there are plenty of hard-working and reasonably intelligent people that are unable to do it. He's definitely an outlier among the homeless population.
mtdewcmu 9y ago
Agree. I think of group (1) as the "accidentally homeless." Group (2) is homeless secondary to some other insidious problem and they will remain homeless unless the primary problem is dealt with. Group (1) are a source of feel-good stories. But group (2) are the ones that really need help, and that help might be inconveniently expensive. It's easier and cheaper to pretend that group (2) doesn't exist.
saalweachter 9y ago
I would also add a third problem: scalability. A story like this presents a way out of poverty and homelessness ... for a few people. Which is great, saving a single person is always a victory. But it doesn't scale.
clackanon 9y ago
The problem with the "but they have mental illness to deal with" answer is that while it may be true, it's very much the edge case, and not the rule. I know this because I've been homeless. I'd say greater than 90% of the folks that I encountered in my homeless period were there because they were content to be there. If they wanted to change their lot, there was more than ample opportunity to do so, between available services and working nearly ANY kind of job. It took me about 4 months of working to get off the street.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > The problem with the "but they have mental illness to deal with" answer is that while it may be true, it's very much the edge case, and not the rule. You provide no substantive justification for this claim. > I know this because I've been homeless. I'd say greater than 90% of the folks that I encountered in my homeless period were there because they were content to be there. Being homeless doesn't make you an especially qualified assessor of mental state, nor is there any reason to believe that the people you interacted with enough to form a judgement about their reasons for being on the street were representative even if your judgement were inassailable.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
kamaal 9y ago
>>The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down on your luck (but hard-working and reasonably intelligent) (2) being stuck in a poverty loop due to mental illness, criminal record, or countless other complex factors. Those two problem can be classified as: 1. Taking personal responsibility. 2. Not taking personal responsibility. The moment you make up your mind that you are not responsible for your problem, you essentially remove any incentive to take action at your end. Essentially making it impossible for any real solution to work. Im not saying people do not fail for reasons beyond their control. But if you do away the personal responsibility part, you permanently shut down the door for taking action from your end.
sangnoir 9y ago
> This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. He could have stayed on the street had he not kicked his drug habit. I am amazed that your comment doesn't mention his drug addiction at all - he wasn't just "down on his luck". That he got over his addiction without support is amazing, but let us not pretend that smart, hard-working individuals can't get addicted to drugs. If you have an addiction, please don't be afraid to get help.
pacman83 9y ago
I think that you and some of the others might be interested in my story, if it doesn't make you too uncomfortable. It's not a neat and tidy moral fable that illustrates how you can succeed if you do the right things and vice versa. I'm currently homeless. I chose this about 7.5 months ago, even though for part of this time I was employed full-time at $18/hour. I wanted to help my ex-wife with her rent after I moved out, and to put the rest of my money toward dental work, health care, health food, and relocation. I graduated with Research Honors with a BS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from a top university in my field in 1995. As an embedded software engineer at a fast-growing wireless telecom company, 1995-2000, I earned extra stock options for my performance, such that in 2000, when I resigned, the current valuation of just the options I forfeited was around $500,000. But now, now I am homeless. And I am finding the stress of it is dragging me down, such that it may become a vicious cycle if it isn't already. A story like this tends to make people uncomfortable; especially, people seem to scramble to tell themselves that they and their loved ones cannot possibly share such a downward trajectory. I must have done some really stupid things in order to deserve this, right? In a nutshell, I think that I did make some less than wise choices, but possibly not any of the ones that you are imagining. I did not develop a drinking problem, gambling problem, or any of the other moral faults that most people imagine. I also did not have a bad work ethic. In fact, one reason I resigned was that due to the huge incongruity between my work ethic and others judgments of me as they tried to figure out what I had stopped accomplishing much. Frankly, it hurt my feelings, and I was tired of being insulted, although I understood where they were coming from: Unless a medical professional labelled me as sick, a smart guy who has ceased to perform well must be lazy, right? I could make a case that my work ethic was too good: I refused to be paid more than I thought I was worth, and I also decided at some point to focus on doing whatever work the market was under-valuing. This could have been good for humanity had I succeeded (it was a mooonshot I was attempting) but it was bad for me personally. What happened to me? I would say that gradually and in stages (starting with a dad with poor anger management and moving 12 times by age 12, across states and internationally), I developed some kind of trauma syndrome, in the direction of PTSD if not that per se. If you have read about trauma, you may know that the effects can come on cumulatively and gradually. A few head injuries along the way may have helped, though all of them happened before I entered university. This is also a story about the failure of health care. When the actual care didn't fail, the marketing of it did, such that it took me forever to identify trauma as the central problem. Before that I thought it might be "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome," but this didn't quite fit; my fatigue wasn't constant but more mental and triggered by challenging mental tasks; eventually I learned that CFS and Fibromyalgia are highly correlated with trauma and can be caused by it. I am working on writing something about this, telling the whole story, or as much of it as can helpful to readers. I also seek worthwhile venues in which to publish it. The tension I sense is between finding sufficiently thoughtful readers and finding readers who won't be so sensitive to my horror story that they put on their protective blinders. I need readers who are willing to read honestly.

kilroy123 9y ago

I agree completely. My sister is a bad drug addict and an alcoholic. She would be homeless if she didn't live with my dad. We're also pretty sure now she also has a serious mental disorder as well. I doubt she'll ever hold down a job again in her life. Even if she gets clean.

Mz 9y ago

someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. And capacity. Many people on the street have serious health problems or other obstacles to productivity. I lack neither intelligence nor a work ethic, but I do have health problems. I have been homeless 5.5 years, though I blog, do freelance work, etc. Edit: You also need opportunity. Being homeless can be a huge barrier to opportunity, both in practical terms and due to stigma. People don't want to hire homeless people.

Swizec 9y ago
Honest question: why don't you charge enough for your freelance work so you wouldn't be homeless?
- Mz 9y ago
  When I work, I often make more than $20/hour. Not always, but often. But I am not always able to put in the hours, due in part to my health problems and in part to logistical issues from being homeless. I also have trouble promoting myself, in part because I am homeless so people online don't take me seriously, but in part because I am a woman, so a lot of people didn't want to take me seriously even when I had an apartment. Plus, my student loan is being paid off this week. With that paid off, the odds of me getting off the street start going up. There are plenty of articles on how much of a burden student loans can be in the US. So google it if you can't fathom how that matters.
  - jameskegel 9y ago
    Gender and home situation are two things not conveyed over the internet; I don't think this stigma is legitimately a risk. The fact is you're propagating that information, which is a choice.
    - Mz 9y ago
      Given that I am the highest ranked woman on Hacker News, I think you are clearly in error. Historically, women have not been warmly welcomed here and not taken as seriously as the men. And if you can't admit your gender for fear of discrimination, that closes doors in terms of business. The men are never advised to hide their gender. Yet people seem to think that's an actual solution for a woman. I can't fathom how on earth anyone can say that and not realize they are just reinforcing sexism in an extreme and horrible manner. Also, it seriously doesn't work to tell me "there is no stigma -- all you have to do is hide those facts about yourself." If there is no stigma, why on earth would I need to hide them? Or to blame me for admitting that I am female and homeless. Hiding information about yourself is another burden to communicating and can complicate the hell out of attempts to accomplish anything when you need to work around certain things but are compelled to not mention them for fear of stigma.
      - jameskegel 9y ago
        Your response has given me greater perspective to your situation, bless your heart.
logicallee 9y ago
>I have been homeless 5.5 years This is a huge personal revelation. I have happened to be in touch with the parent poster via HN and they are simply an intelligent, thoughtful, person with important and good opinions on whatever topics they write about. I hope you resolve your issues with housing soon. As you write, you have a lot of capacity for high-level work.
- Mz 9y ago
  Thank you.
- Diederich 9y ago
  Posted on her behalf: https://www.patreon.com/MicheleinCalifornia https://www.patreon.com/MicheleinCalifornia http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/ http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/
- gpawl 9y ago
  FYI, Mz has been here sharing her perspective on homelessness for several years: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+mz+homeless https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+mz+ho...
  - logicallee 9y ago
    Thanks, though that doesn't change my impression of mz from our interaction, which I listed. Since we're on HN: I don't see how it's fundamentally different from people who fail for years to raise money, until they finally do. My interaction with GP is from not that long ago. They're a smart, clear writer and I hope they resolve their housing situation soon. Then, if they ever want to do a startup they'll be better at it than most people, based on my interaction. They've also studied GIS, though I'm not sure if they want to work with it or in a different field. I am confident they can resolve their housing issue and I believe in them. By the way Elon Musk lived in an office and took showers at a YMCA.[1] That meets the definition of homeless. If you want a chance to back the next elon musk, invest in whatever mz does whenever they're ready to take money (though I'm not sure if they have any such intentions - but surely there's a reason they're on this site). mz, I hope this reply is not out of place and again, I hope you resolve your housing issue soon. I am basing my opinion of you based on an interaction with you and based your writing, which is all anyone gets if someone sends a pitch deck, emails, or business plan. you might have huge difficulty and perhaps its stretched for years but I believe you will go through it based on your talent and abilities. you can do it. go. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+showers+ymca https://www.google.com/search?q=elon+musk+showers+ymca

jopsen 9y ago

Problem (3) these stories don't scale.

bmpafa 9y ago

This is a critical point, thanks for making it. The mythology that all failure is a function of bad work ethic, etc., is a huge barrier to meaningful progress on poverty alleviation. Anyone interested in reading more on this topic, I rec. this book. It's about people who are near-homeless, not fully homeless, but it's one of the best things I've read on the topic. The author lived with the subjects for several years & does a superlative job of telling their story in that sort of explanatory way (not judgmental or absolving) that HN readers seem to appreciate. https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-City/dp/0553447432 https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-City/... (excerpt of the book here: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/08/forced-out http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/08/forced-out)

Banthum 9y ago
I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not coming to work, randomly. Or he comes in later and later each day, arriving hours late. Or he takes breaks that extend to hours long. Work ethic is a huge part of the problem, and the constant denial that many poor people (not all) do have everything they need to lift themselves up, and simply choose not to do so, is itself a denial of their human agency and ensures that the policy/cultural changes that could lead them out of poverty are not made. Ultimately, it's staggeringly harmful to them. In the end the wealthy and the poor both have to make changes to end poverty. It's a team effort. It's not up to a rich savior class to come and fix the dirty people from the outside. (I'm convinced that many wealthy people don't understand this because they really can't imagine what a true lack of worth ethic looks like; they've just never been at close range with it for an extended period of time and had to face up to the fact that it is a real thing and it is harmful. Ultimately that's a consequence of the closed social bubbles we live in now; we just don't know the other classes because we're so isolated from them.)
- mjevans 9y ago

rollingpebbles 9y ago

Doing badass things that don't scale got him attention that could be monetized to further bring himself and others up. Goodwill (the business value kind) is a vital component to rapidly scaling a venture. Things that scale come later.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago

This is like complaining Ruby on Rails has a problem because you can't build iOS apps with it. It's a good story, and it inspires tons of people who are in bad situations, as well as people who are in good situations but are doing nothing with it. What more do you want? Solve global warming? Don't turn this into "you can't always win just because you work hard" trope. This is a beautiful story that inspires people and that itself is powerful.

startupdiscuss 9y ago

There is a form of #2 (a poverty trap) that afflicts people in category #1. This is probably the most easily "treatable" condition. Basically, you can be smart and motivated, but not have the resources (family, friends, money) to pull yourself together. You may not even have a computer, a car, or a house. You can't shave, let alone get a clean set of clothes or transport to an interview. You can't put together a resume and so on. This is sad because a few months of housing, internet, food, and basically time support could turn this person's life around. Of course, people who have mental illness or have paid their due for a crime and so on also deserve help. I am not arguing they don't. I just mean that it costs so little for so much good in the former case.

a3n 9y ago

> Problem (2) however is the much bigger problem. Unfortunately, what this guy did is only marginally useful in coming up with solutions to that problem. What this guy did was "Anything but what was keeping him down." And he's very fortunate that he was able to overcome his particular problem, addiction, on his own. The key to problem 2 is to a) Intervene with yourself, or b) Get help to intervene with yourself, or c) Be fortunate that a kind soul or community intervenes on your behalf. b) and especially c) are tough in today's developed, "don't look at them" world.

vinhboy 9y ago

The clarity of these kinds of comments on HN makes me so happy. In the Trump-era, it warms my heart to see there are still plenty of intelligent people who understand complex problems. I know this is a stupid, and almost patronizing comment from me, but seriously, at this point in our society, every shred of humanity is meaningful.

jobu 9y ago

Also this: "With some self-motivation and a lot of self-help books, I made the decision to stop taking drugs. ..." That quote made it seem like no big deal for him to stop using drugs, but there are plenty of hard-working and reasonably intelligent people that are unable to do it. He's definitely an outlier among the homeless population.

mtdewcmu 9y ago

Agree. I think of group (1) as the "accidentally homeless." Group (2) is homeless secondary to some other insidious problem and they will remain homeless unless the primary problem is dealt with. Group (1) are a source of feel-good stories. But group (2) are the ones that really need help, and that help might be inconveniently expensive. It's easier and cheaper to pretend that group (2) doesn't exist.

saalweachter 9y ago

I would also add a third problem: scalability. A story like this presents a way out of poverty and homelessness ... for a few people. Which is great, saving a single person is always a victory. But it doesn't scale.

clackanon 9y ago

The problem with the "but they have mental illness to deal with" answer is that while it may be true, it's very much the edge case, and not the rule. I know this because I've been homeless. I'd say greater than 90% of the folks that I encountered in my homeless period were there because they were content to be there. If they wanted to change their lot, there was more than ample opportunity to do so, between available services and working nearly ANY kind of job. It took me about 4 months of working to get off the street.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> The problem with the "but they have mental illness to deal with" answer is that while it may be true, it's very much the edge case, and not the rule. You provide no substantive justification for this claim. > I know this because I've been homeless. I'd say greater than 90% of the folks that I encountered in my homeless period were there because they were content to be there. Being homeless doesn't make you an especially qualified assessor of mental state, nor is there any reason to believe that the people you interacted with enough to form a judgement about their reasons for being on the street were representative even if your judgement were inassailable.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

kamaal 9y ago

>>The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down on your luck (but hard-working and reasonably intelligent) (2) being stuck in a poverty loop due to mental illness, criminal record, or countless other complex factors. Those two problem can be classified as: 1. Taking personal responsibility. 2. Not taking personal responsibility. The moment you make up your mind that you are not responsible for your problem, you essentially remove any incentive to take action at your end. Essentially making it impossible for any real solution to work. Im not saying people do not fail for reasons beyond their control. But if you do away the personal responsibility part, you permanently shut down the door for taking action from your end.

sangnoir 9y ago

> This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. He could have stayed on the street had he not kicked his drug habit. I am amazed that your comment doesn't mention his drug addiction at all - he wasn't just "down on his luck". That he got over his addiction without support is amazing, but let us not pretend that smart, hard-working individuals can't get addicted to drugs. If you have an addiction, please don't be afraid to get help.

pacman83 9y ago

I think that you and some of the others might be interested in my story, if it doesn't make you too uncomfortable. It's not a neat and tidy moral fable that illustrates how you can succeed if you do the right things and vice versa. I'm currently homeless. I chose this about 7.5 months ago, even though for part of this time I was employed full-time at $18/hour. I wanted to help my ex-wife with her rent after I moved out, and to put the rest of my money toward dental work, health care, health food, and relocation. I graduated with Research Honors with a BS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from a top university in my field in 1995. As an embedded software engineer at a fast-growing wireless telecom company, 1995-2000, I earned extra stock options for my performance, such that in 2000, when I resigned, the current valuation of just the options I forfeited was around $500,000. But now, now I am homeless. And I am finding the stress of it is dragging me down, such that it may become a vicious cycle if it isn't already. A story like this tends to make people uncomfortable; especially, people seem to scramble to tell themselves that they and their loved ones cannot possibly share such a downward trajectory. I must have done some really stupid things in order to deserve this, right? In a nutshell, I think that I did make some less than wise choices, but possibly not any of the ones that you are imagining. I did not develop a drinking problem, gambling problem, or any of the other moral faults that most people imagine. I also did not have a bad work ethic. In fact, one reason I resigned was that due to the huge incongruity between my work ethic and others judgments of me as they tried to figure out what I had stopped accomplishing much. Frankly, it hurt my feelings, and I was tired of being insulted, although I understood where they were coming from: Unless a medical professional labelled me as sick, a smart guy who has ceased to perform well must be lazy, right? I could make a case that my work ethic was too good: I refused to be paid more than I thought I was worth, and I also decided at some point to focus on doing whatever work the market was under-valuing. This could have been good for humanity had I succeeded (it was a mooonshot I was attempting) but it was bad for me personally. What happened to me? I would say that gradually and in stages (starting with a dad with poor anger management and moving 12 times by age 12, across states and internationally), I developed some kind of trauma syndrome, in the direction of PTSD if not that per se. If you have read about trauma, you may know that the effects can come on cumulatively and gradually. A few head injuries along the way may have helped, though all of them happened before I entered university. This is also a story about the failure of health care. When the actual care didn't fail, the marketing of it did, such that it took me forever to identify trauma as the central problem. Before that I thought it might be "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome," but this didn't quite fit; my fatigue wasn't constant but more mental and triggered by challenging mental tasks; eventually I learned that CFS and Fibromyalgia are highly correlated with trauma and can be caused by it. I am working on writing something about this, telling the whole story, or as much of it as can helpful to readers. I also seek worthwhile venues in which to publish it. The tension I sense is between finding sufficiently thoughtful readers and finding readers who won't be so sensitive to my horror story that they put on their protective blinders. I need readers who are willing to read honestly.