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The company that makes the software "says it sells the tool exclusively to governments" as though they're trying to take a moral stand and say "we only see it t

The company that makes the software "says it sells the tool exclusively to governments" as though they're trying to take a moral stand and say "we only see it to the good guys". When in fact they sell to governments that are highly oppressive and corrupt. It's a farce.

flipp3r 9y ago
Same shit as with Hacking Team.. They're Israeli's who also sell to the UAE. Lol.
- dsl 9y ago
  This is usually referred to as fourth party intelligence. Say Russia compromises a high ranking ISIS member. The United States could compromise the infrastructure used by the Russians, and collect all the same intelligence. Not only have they gained knowledge about ISIS, they also strategically have a picture into what Russia actually knows.
- qeternity 9y ago
  > They're Israeli's who also sell to the UAE. *Italians
  - flipp3r 9y ago
    What I meant is the people mentioned in the article who sell the software, are based in Israel.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dsl 9y ago
We need to avoid the slippery slope of blaming the tools. There are open source and commercial solutions that implement much of the same functionality. If you blame the tools Hacking Team or NSO or whomever, disappears into the oblivion, and two more spawn to take their place. Meanwhile we build a popular opinion that these things are dangerous and need to be restricted or regulated. Software ends up as the new "burglary tools." We need to shame the people that would have used any means available to the same ends.
- dmix 9y ago
  Having up to date Android and iOS zero days plus the rootkit / RAT software is not something you can get open source or find easily commercially. There's a reason this company is charging hundreds of thousands of dollars to target only 10s of phones... I wouldn't downplay the gatekeeper aspect of these companies and the technical investment it takes for non technical governments to do this stuff. But generally I agree that attempting to control it via the tools is a bad idea or merely putting the blame on the tools is missing the bigger picture. Plus limiting zero day sales will only harm legitimate security research and encourage unrealistic pen testing. Mexico's government is the primary issue here. They have a serious human rights abuse issue at various layers of government. But that said if we're going to try to protect these people from abusive government tactics, since it happens in secrecy and their 'self-regulation' totally fails to stop abuse (even in the US), then there is some value on pushing back against these more sophisticated companies that sell the high end tools that are harder to detect. Since it is a niche market at the moment and a niche expensive skillset... Unlike guns in the US that will be everywhere regardless of gun control, since it's the biggest gun exporter and gun ownership rate in the world, we can hold these companies to a higher degree of responsibility. Eventually though it will have to come down to holding the governments responsible and pushing back by protecting our software. The fact NSO has publicly said they will continue to sell to Mexico despite the clear evidence here that they are not following their stated policy of only targeting cartels, criminals, and terrorists... Then clearly they are shady as hell and their stated policy is bullshit. NSO is hardly without fault here. Unlike the AK47 analogy used in this article which are sold once and then the manufacturer loses control of how its used, this exploitation software needs to be updated with new zero days, new RAT software for new iOS/Android versions, and support/training staff. NSO has chosen to continue offering these services so they are just as much liable as far as I'm concerned.
  - sr2 9y ago
    > Having up to date Android and iOS zero days plus the rootkit / RAT software is not something you can get open source or find easily commercially. You might be right about not being able to find 0days that target the latest versions of iOS or Android so easily, but there are dark web markets stuffed with 0days that target specific versions, or a range of versions. Not sure about pricing, but they're typically cheaper than the exploits that target the latest and greatest. It's by pure chance that the owner of a device is using an out-dated O.S on their phone. Others may argue it's not by chance, but by design, and that some phones can't upgrade properly and remain locked to a specific version..You know, because governments sometimes demand that phones are deliberately left unpatched so they can do interception or do ex-filtration on them?
exelius 9y ago
Also consider that the Mexican government and "cartels" have a lot of overlap. Local governments and municipal police departments in particular.
- 2_listerine_pls 9y ago
  I would add some state governments too.
  - 3131s 9y ago
    From what I've heard, there are extensive connections between the Sinaloa cartel and the Mexican federal government too. The cartels laundered over a billion dollars one year through the state-owned oil company Pemex, for example. It's even been alleged [0] by ex-cartel leaders that the US government props up the Sinaloa cartel with weapons and other material support, since in general the Sinaloa cartel tends to be less outrageously brutal toward civilians than for instance Los Zetas (whose founders unsurprisingly studied at the infamous School of the Americas [1]). [0] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-government-and-the-sinaloa-cartel-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-government-and-the-sin... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...
onli 9y ago
Meanwhile, Germany sends automatic weapons to Mexico. Of course only to the good guys. The police that was involved in the killing in Iguala (the missing 43) was equipped with them. There is evil, and there is more evil.
throwaway91111 9y ago
...not to mention any definition of "good guys" tends to fade at scale. When you're selling to governments it will either leak or be used directly for anti-humanitarian ends. I mean just look at the recent NSA leak. It's the same "conspiracy" patterns we've seen for ages. Hell, the best kept secrets in front of the western world remain the secret cults of rome. Those sonsofbitches knew how to hype a secret. Probably not possible with the internet!

flipp3r 9y ago

Same shit as with Hacking Team.. They're Israeli's who also sell to the UAE. Lol.

dsl 9y ago
This is usually referred to as fourth party intelligence. Say Russia compromises a high ranking ISIS member. The United States could compromise the infrastructure used by the Russians, and collect all the same intelligence. Not only have they gained knowledge about ISIS, they also strategically have a picture into what Russia actually knows.
qeternity 9y ago
> They're Israeli's who also sell to the UAE. *Italians
- flipp3r 9y ago
  What I meant is the people mentioned in the article who sell the software, are based in Israel.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dsl 9y ago

We need to avoid the slippery slope of blaming the tools. There are open source and commercial solutions that implement much of the same functionality. If you blame the tools Hacking Team or NSO or whomever, disappears into the oblivion, and two more spawn to take their place. Meanwhile we build a popular opinion that these things are dangerous and need to be restricted or regulated. Software ends up as the new "burglary tools." We need to shame the people that would have used any means available to the same ends.

dmix 9y ago
Having up to date Android and iOS zero days plus the rootkit / RAT software is not something you can get open source or find easily commercially. There's a reason this company is charging hundreds of thousands of dollars to target only 10s of phones... I wouldn't downplay the gatekeeper aspect of these companies and the technical investment it takes for non technical governments to do this stuff. But generally I agree that attempting to control it via the tools is a bad idea or merely putting the blame on the tools is missing the bigger picture. Plus limiting zero day sales will only harm legitimate security research and encourage unrealistic pen testing. Mexico's government is the primary issue here. They have a serious human rights abuse issue at various layers of government. But that said if we're going to try to protect these people from abusive government tactics, since it happens in secrecy and their 'self-regulation' totally fails to stop abuse (even in the US), then there is some value on pushing back against these more sophisticated companies that sell the high end tools that are harder to detect. Since it is a niche market at the moment and a niche expensive skillset... Unlike guns in the US that will be everywhere regardless of gun control, since it's the biggest gun exporter and gun ownership rate in the world, we can hold these companies to a higher degree of responsibility. Eventually though it will have to come down to holding the governments responsible and pushing back by protecting our software. The fact NSO has publicly said they will continue to sell to Mexico despite the clear evidence here that they are not following their stated policy of only targeting cartels, criminals, and terrorists... Then clearly they are shady as hell and their stated policy is bullshit. NSO is hardly without fault here. Unlike the AK47 analogy used in this article which are sold once and then the manufacturer loses control of how its used, this exploitation software needs to be updated with new zero days, new RAT software for new iOS/Android versions, and support/training staff. NSO has chosen to continue offering these services so they are just as much liable as far as I'm concerned.
- sr2 9y ago
  > Having up to date Android and iOS zero days plus the rootkit / RAT software is not something you can get open source or find easily commercially. You might be right about not being able to find 0days that target the latest versions of iOS or Android so easily, but there are dark web markets stuffed with 0days that target specific versions, or a range of versions. Not sure about pricing, but they're typically cheaper than the exploits that target the latest and greatest. It's by pure chance that the owner of a device is using an out-dated O.S on their phone. Others may argue it's not by chance, but by design, and that some phones can't upgrade properly and remain locked to a specific version..You know, because governments sometimes demand that phones are deliberately left unpatched so they can do interception or do ex-filtration on them?

exelius 9y ago

Also consider that the Mexican government and "cartels" have a lot of overlap. Local governments and municipal police departments in particular.

2_listerine_pls 9y ago
I would add some state governments too.
- 3131s 9y ago
  From what I've heard, there are extensive connections between the Sinaloa cartel and the Mexican federal government too. The cartels laundered over a billion dollars one year through the state-owned oil company Pemex, for example. It's even been alleged [0] by ex-cartel leaders that the US government props up the Sinaloa cartel with weapons and other material support, since in general the Sinaloa cartel tends to be less outrageously brutal toward civilians than for instance Los Zetas (whose founders unsurprisingly studied at the infamous School of the Americas [1]). [0] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-government-and-the-sinaloa-cartel-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-government-and-the-sin... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...

onli 9y ago

Meanwhile, Germany sends automatic weapons to Mexico. Of course only to the good guys. The police that was involved in the killing in Iguala (the missing 43) was equipped with them. There is evil, and there is more evil.

throwaway91111 9y ago

...not to mention any definition of "good guys" tends to fade at scale. When you're selling to governments it will either leak or be used directly for anti-humanitarian ends. I mean just look at the recent NSA leak. It's the same "conspiracy" patterns we've seen for ages. Hell, the best kept secrets in front of the western world remain the secret cults of rome. Those sonsofbitches knew how to hype a secret. Probably not possible with the internet!