3 ms·

Tooling is actually okay, it seems archaic because with a FPGA you are actually designing the very fundamentals of computing. There is no hand holding there. I

by sweden 9y ago

Tooling is actually okay, it seems archaic because with a FPGA you are actually designing the very fundamentals of computing. There is no hand holding there. It would be the equivalent of a newbie programmer looking at GCC and saying: "This program that makes other programs looks so archaic, it runs on an 70's computer terminal."

convolvatron 9y ago
i disagree, getting accustomed to one of these tool chains takes a really long time. you can run a pipeline for hours only to have it fail with some unreadable message. everything is layered over with lots of poor deep-menu ui, but it doesn't save you from having to understand the pipe in its entirety. oh right, i forgot that depending on what you are doing you may have to open up several different tools manually. oh right, and the insistence on using feature wizards, which somehow work fine for the on example case but fail in mysterious ways or aren't capable of expressing what you actually want to do its really a long way away from "gcc hello.c ; ./a.out" then multiply that with the tool licensing and various feature sets, the IP licensing...support for different parts, entirely different tooling for different vendors. part of it as you say is that reality is a lot more inherently complicated than software...but the tooling really is a mess. time and cost are a huge barrier to entry.
- sweden 9y ago
  You are probably mixing RTL design with Place and Route, those are two completely different things. You can design and simulate without your FPGA, most of the tools allow for simulation without calling a GUI. It will be not different than calling GCC. Worst case scenario, you can always use this open source Verilog simulator, it's good enough if you are only designing for FPGAs: http://iverilog.icarus.com/ http://iverilog.icarus.com/ Again, you don't need any FPGA to do the design and you shouldn't even use it, it's a waste of time synthesizing the design every time you make a change. Place and Route comes after the design gets to a complete state and you should only be able to do it once. If you are doing something different from this flow, you are most likely doing it wrong.
  - convolvatron 9y ago
    i almost certainly am. made the mistake of listening to the AE

by sweden 9y ago

convolvatron 9y ago

i disagree, getting accustomed to one of these tool chains takes a really long time. you can run a pipeline for hours only to have it fail with some unreadable message. everything is layered over with lots of poor deep-menu ui, but it doesn't save you from having to understand the pipe in its entirety. oh right, i forgot that depending on what you are doing you may have to open up several different tools manually. oh right, and the insistence on using feature wizards, which somehow work fine for the on example case but fail in mysterious ways or aren't capable of expressing what you actually want to do its really a long way away from "gcc hello.c ; ./a.out" then multiply that with the tool licensing and various feature sets, the IP licensing...support for different parts, entirely different tooling for different vendors. part of it as you say is that reality is a lot more inherently complicated than software...but the tooling really is a mess. time and cost are a huge barrier to entry.

sweden 9y ago
You are probably mixing RTL design with Place and Route, those are two completely different things. You can design and simulate without your FPGA, most of the tools allow for simulation without calling a GUI. It will be not different than calling GCC. Worst case scenario, you can always use this open source Verilog simulator, it's good enough if you are only designing for FPGAs: http://iverilog.icarus.com/ http://iverilog.icarus.com/ Again, you don't need any FPGA to do the design and you shouldn't even use it, it's a waste of time synthesizing the design every time you make a change. Place and Route comes after the design gets to a complete state and you should only be able to do it once. If you are doing something different from this flow, you are most likely doing it wrong.
- convolvatron 9y ago
  i almost certainly am. made the mistake of listening to the AE