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The online presence indicator is one of the problems created by Slack. Using real-time chat is the actual problem, whether it's Slack or Hipchat, or anything al

by hfauq 9y ago

The online presence indicator is one of the problems created by Slack. Using real-time chat is the actual problem, whether it's Slack or Hipchat, or anything alike. Real-time is great sometime, but I don't think you should use it all the time: - Real-time chat happens quickly — one line at a time — discouraging full, thoughtful conversations. - Topics are all jumbled together in a channel so it’s nearly impossible to piece together the full conversation. - Important team knowledge — like what decision did we make and why? — gets buried and lost within hours (even with powerful search). - The real-time nature of communication excludes anyone who’s not there in the moment it takes place. - Constant notifications eat into your time and attention. - Even if you’ve turned off notifications, the fear of missing out on something important keeps pulling you back into the app. - It slowly creates a culture that prioritizes being available over doing good work.

onion2k 9y ago
Real-time chat happens quickly — one line at a time — discouraging full, thoughtful conversations. Slack supports shift+CRLF for line breaks, so users can write epic poems broken up in to hundreds of stanzas if they want to. Using Slack as a one-line-at-a-time chat service is a choice that a user makes. Slack itself doesn't enforce it. Topics are all jumbled together in a channel so it’s nearly impossible to piece together the full conversation. Only if users interrupt the current conversation with something else. Again, this is a cultural choice that users make. It's not a Slack thing, or even a chat thing. Also, Slack does support threaded conversations (albeit with a pretty horrible UI). Important team knowledge — like what decision did we make and why? — gets buried and lost within hours (even with powerful search). I totally agree. Slack is not the right place for documenting important stuff. Nor is a different chat app, or email. Important knowledge should be put in a knowledge management app (eg a repo wiki for code, or a Word doc for business related things).
- dood 9y ago
  It is true that Slack allows multi-line posts and discrete conversations, but both go totally against the grain of the system design. Expecting people to use Slack in a way it wasn't designed for can only result in failure or constant friction.
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    How are shift+enter newlines "totally against the grain of the system design"? Most every chat system I'm aware of supports this and displays it in a sane way. If people are misusing the system, training/instruction is in order.
    - gengkev 9y ago
      It may seem like a little thing, but you have to be very careful while typing not to accidentally press Enter. I've found this to be surprisingly difficult, and it makes typing a lot more stressful.
      - hedora 9y ago
        For a while gmail had this ui "feature" where <tab><enter> or <tab>string-of-characters<space> would send an email without prompting. I still fear the web UI. I guess emailing out bullet lists was against the implicit use case the gmail UI team had in mind. Stuff like this definitely changes how tools are used.
        pythonaut_16 9y ago
        In the case of Gmail (and most email systems really) I always start out by putting my own address in the To: field. That way if I accidentally send it will just come back to me. It can also be useful because I can first send the email to myself to double check the way it will look on the receiving end before sending it to the actual recipient.
        burntwater 9y ago
        This exact problem led to my current behavior that I now use in all email apps: I delete/never fill in the "to" fields leaving that for last. Can't accidentally send an email to nowhere...
        majewsky 9y ago
        Entirely unrelated to the Slack discussion, but I wonder if that could be a positive pattern for a mail client: only allowing you to define the recipients when you have written out the full message. Also, when replying to a long mail thread, showing you the previous list of recipients and requiring you to select those that you want to include in your next mail. Could limit CC sprawl quite a bit.
- devmunchies 9y ago
  > Using Slack as a one-line-at-a-time chat service is a choice that a user makes. Slack itself doesn't enforce it. Thats like saying you can drive your car with your feet, the car doesn't enforce driving by hands. The point of this post is saying that slack has these shortcoming by the nature of its design. You can make as many arguments as you want defending it, but everything has a design that influences usage.
  - onion2k 9y ago
    Thats like saying you can drive your car with your feet, the car doesn't enforce driving by hands. That's a slightly odd analogy, but let's go with it. You're right that you can drive a car in ways that are dangerous, and the car doesn't enforce safe driving. The law is what enforces the way you drive (by punishing you for driving dangerously). This is exactly the same as company rules to ensure Slack is used properly. So, yeah, I guess it works pretty well, and people who use Slack badly are "foot-drivers".
    - urethrafranklin 9y ago
      But that's one of the hallmarks of poor design, having to create rules to accommodate for a tool's dysfunctionality.
    - setr 9y ago
      Pretty sure the GP doesn't care about the law in the analogy; the design of the car itself impedes your ability to drive with your feet. In the same way, slack is frictionless to post one-liners; you have to go out of your way to post a multi-liner (and I personally have the constant worry I'll miss the shift and post half-finished in such systems). It doesn't matter if the law (company) says to drive by hands; you have to be really intent on driving with your feet to get into a car and do such a clearly unnatural thing. It's difficult to imagine someone new getting in and thinking this must be the correct position, because the car does not support it naturally. It can be done, but only while dealing with friction. Then compare slack to a bbs forum, where people naturally post paragraphs. Not coincidentally, the act of posting has more friction; CLRF is a newline, posting is a button off at the bottom of the page. To get a better ratio of value (writing) to friction, you'll simply have to write more and post less. The law (company) can enforce unnatural behavior onto its populace, but when the law is unclear or unstated (or ignored) on the particular matter, the natural activity depends on the environment. And slack is very clearly predisposed to a particular kind of posting.
- shanwang 9y ago
  I actually think document should be kept/written by a chat/email app. Most companies have a wiki for document, but how many of them can stay up to date? Discussions happen all the time, and they often require changes to previous documents. Maybe an ideal tool is one can capture team communication, present it in a organised way, and let people edit it later for a more polished view.
tzakrajs 9y ago
Sounds like a personnel issue more than a chat client problem.
- forgottenpass 9y ago
  The medium is the message. Do you want to spend time training workflow and enforcing best practices, or a tool designed around desired workflow?
dcosson 9y ago
If people are making big, irreversible decisions in real-time on slack without a lot of deliberation, that does sound like a problem, but it hardly seems like slack's fault. The same thing could happen over email via several quick replies, or just in person with whoever happens to be nearby and not wearing headphones.

by hfauq 9y ago

onion2k 9y ago

Real-time chat happens quickly — one line at a time — discouraging full, thoughtful conversations. Slack supports shift+CRLF for line breaks, so users can write epic poems broken up in to hundreds of stanzas if they want to. Using Slack as a one-line-at-a-time chat service is a choice that a user makes. Slack itself doesn't enforce it. Topics are all jumbled together in a channel so it’s nearly impossible to piece together the full conversation. Only if users interrupt the current conversation with something else. Again, this is a cultural choice that users make. It's not a Slack thing, or even a chat thing. Also, Slack does support threaded conversations (albeit with a pretty horrible UI). Important team knowledge — like what decision did we make and why? — gets buried and lost within hours (even with powerful search). I totally agree. Slack is not the right place for documenting important stuff. Nor is a different chat app, or email. Important knowledge should be put in a knowledge management app (eg a repo wiki for code, or a Word doc for business related things).

dood 9y ago
It is true that Slack allows multi-line posts and discrete conversations, but both go totally against the grain of the system design. Expecting people to use Slack in a way it wasn't designed for can only result in failure or constant friction.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  How are shift+enter newlines "totally against the grain of the system design"? Most every chat system I'm aware of supports this and displays it in a sane way. If people are misusing the system, training/instruction is in order.
  - gengkev 9y ago
    It may seem like a little thing, but you have to be very careful while typing not to accidentally press Enter. I've found this to be surprisingly difficult, and it makes typing a lot more stressful.
    - hedora 9y ago
      For a while gmail had this ui "feature" where <tab><enter> or <tab>string-of-characters<space> would send an email without prompting. I still fear the web UI. I guess emailing out bullet lists was against the implicit use case the gmail UI team had in mind. Stuff like this definitely changes how tools are used.
      - pythonaut_16 9y ago
        In the case of Gmail (and most email systems really) I always start out by putting my own address in the To: field. That way if I accidentally send it will just come back to me. It can also be useful because I can first send the email to myself to double check the way it will look on the receiving end before sending it to the actual recipient.
      - burntwater 9y ago
        This exact problem led to my current behavior that I now use in all email apps: I delete/never fill in the "to" fields leaving that for last. Can't accidentally send an email to nowhere...
        majewsky 9y ago
        Entirely unrelated to the Slack discussion, but I wonder if that could be a positive pattern for a mail client: only allowing you to define the recipients when you have written out the full message. Also, when replying to a long mail thread, showing you the previous list of recipients and requiring you to select those that you want to include in your next mail. Could limit CC sprawl quite a bit.
devmunchies 9y ago
> Using Slack as a one-line-at-a-time chat service is a choice that a user makes. Slack itself doesn't enforce it. Thats like saying you can drive your car with your feet, the car doesn't enforce driving by hands. The point of this post is saying that slack has these shortcoming by the nature of its design. You can make as many arguments as you want defending it, but everything has a design that influences usage.
- onion2k 9y ago
  Thats like saying you can drive your car with your feet, the car doesn't enforce driving by hands. That's a slightly odd analogy, but let's go with it. You're right that you can drive a car in ways that are dangerous, and the car doesn't enforce safe driving. The law is what enforces the way you drive (by punishing you for driving dangerously). This is exactly the same as company rules to ensure Slack is used properly. So, yeah, I guess it works pretty well, and people who use Slack badly are "foot-drivers".
  - urethrafranklin 9y ago
    But that's one of the hallmarks of poor design, having to create rules to accommodate for a tool's dysfunctionality.
  - setr 9y ago
    Pretty sure the GP doesn't care about the law in the analogy; the design of the car itself impedes your ability to drive with your feet. In the same way, slack is frictionless to post one-liners; you have to go out of your way to post a multi-liner (and I personally have the constant worry I'll miss the shift and post half-finished in such systems). It doesn't matter if the law (company) says to drive by hands; you have to be really intent on driving with your feet to get into a car and do such a clearly unnatural thing. It's difficult to imagine someone new getting in and thinking this must be the correct position, because the car does not support it naturally. It can be done, but only while dealing with friction. Then compare slack to a bbs forum, where people naturally post paragraphs. Not coincidentally, the act of posting has more friction; CLRF is a newline, posting is a button off at the bottom of the page. To get a better ratio of value (writing) to friction, you'll simply have to write more and post less. The law (company) can enforce unnatural behavior onto its populace, but when the law is unclear or unstated (or ignored) on the particular matter, the natural activity depends on the environment. And slack is very clearly predisposed to a particular kind of posting.
shanwang 9y ago
I actually think document should be kept/written by a chat/email app. Most companies have a wiki for document, but how many of them can stay up to date? Discussions happen all the time, and they often require changes to previous documents. Maybe an ideal tool is one can capture team communication, present it in a organised way, and let people edit it later for a more polished view.

tzakrajs 9y ago

Sounds like a personnel issue more than a chat client problem.

forgottenpass 9y ago
The medium is the message. Do you want to spend time training workflow and enforcing best practices, or a tool designed around desired workflow?

dcosson 9y ago

If people are making big, irreversible decisions in real-time on slack without a lot of deliberation, that does sound like a problem, but it hardly seems like slack's fault. The same thing could happen over email via several quick replies, or just in person with whoever happens to be nearby and not wearing headphones.