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I really feel that engineers need to wake up to this kind of thing. I'm not saying we should stop (although that's what might happen), just that we pause and c

by bem94 9y ago

I really feel that engineers need to wake up to this kind of thing. I'm not saying we should stop (although that's what might happen), just that we pause and consider what this is doing to the world. It is the undercurrent for so many profound changes going on right now. Are we really comfortable as individuals building systems which predict someones mental (ill) health, personality traits or ethnicity just so we can sell them things, or worse, not sell them things?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
inanutshellus 9y ago
It's like any other thing in capitalism. You'll have a contingent of folk that won't do the work, based on ethical reasons, and you have folk that will, for financial reasons. Anecdotally, the few folks I know that work for data collection companies are all "tinfoil hat" types. They have flip-phones, they have no online presence, they smile like a Cheshire Cat when you ask them about it and you generally get the impression they've just decided to categorize it as "us" and "them". :-\
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bem94 9y ago
  > It's like any other thing in capitalism. You'll have a contingent of folk that won't do the work, based on ethical reasons, and you have folk that will, for financial reasons. That is true, but going on my peers (especially the ones fresh from university), I think a dangerous proportion of people simply aren't aware on any level of the ethical implications of what they do. It's that which worries me.
  - sixstringtheory 9y ago
    I don't think I've ever seen as much apathy in a classroom as my fellow CS majors displayed in our society and ethics course.
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      > society and ethics course How was the course? I didn't have one, but many other "engineering ethics" courses I've seen inspire apathy just because they're terrible. It's like school anti-bullying campaigns - even if you're vehemently anti-bullying, most of the campaigns are too ridiculous to feel anything good about. On the other hand, something like Canada's Iron Ring seems to get taken very seriously. It seems like a nontrivial part of the challenge is teaching ethics in a way that reaches even the people who want to behave ethically.
      - sixstringtheory 9y ago
        It's true, it wasn't a mindblowingly exciting class or delivery. There were a handful of people who cared to ask questions beyond the prompts for group assignments or during lectures. A lot of people accepted as obvious fact that every household should have a humanoid robot, or e-government would make perfect decisions, or complete quantification of the individual couldn't possibly be abused. (These are just the ones that stand out in my memory.) Then you also have the garden variety folks playing minecraft, doing other coursework, etc. I'll also grant that I'm not very visionary or even great working/leading large groups of people. How would you teach a class exciting enough that virtually all students would attend it, enthusiastically, even if it were elective? (It was required for us.) At the end of the day, it's only going to be as exciting as the students make it by involving themselves and thinking. They are the ones creating tomorrow's startups, not the professors. As it stands, it seemed like quite the accurate litmus test for how many people care to think about issues in this way in our field.
    - fivestar 9y ago
      I can tell just from the postings on HN that SV people need better ethics training.
    - Asooka 9y ago
      Because "society and ethics" sound a lot like "bowing to the man", which coincidentally is exactly what this fine article is against. Because the man does stupid decisions based on flawed assumptions.
- Pigo 9y ago
  We had innovation team member spawn a project that would track how often call center reps were seated and monitor their activity. I had to be the party-pooper that brought up how Draconian his amazing idea was. I told our lead I refused to work on projects that spied on people to punish them, but would love to work on projects that reward people for doing a good job as long as it respects their privacy.
ocdtrekkie 9y ago
I don't think there's any risk of that. As I pull out my favorite quote for the last few months: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair Very few people in the upper echelons of society (like highly-paid Silicon Valley engineers) truly believe they're doing something wrong, or could even be convinced they are doing something wrong. Above a certain level on Mazlowe's hierarchy, people have selected where they work in part because of the mission. They have bought the company line because in part, the company line is what they're there for. People at Google don't work there because they really love advertising and really love putting banner ads in front of people. They work at Google because they believe they're 'making the world a better place'. And good luck convincing anyone that their purpose in life is a lie and that they're part of the problem. I've convinced exactly zero people so far. I mean, I'm sure Uber employees feel they're empowering people to work for themselves and helping people make a decent living who might otherwise be stuck unemployed. Maybe it took that many blatant scandals and fiascos for Travis Kalanick to come to terms with the fact that he wasn't making the world a better place?
- bem94 9y ago
  > "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair One of my favourite quotes too, but I refuse to accept it as law. If people really do work at places like Google, Uber and Palantir to make the world a better place, then it suggests they would care if they are making the world a worse place inadvertantly, right? In which case it just takes education. If, on the other hand, they don't want to look too deeply into the social consequences of what they work on, then that is more difficult to deal with. All of these companies (especially Google) make some fantastic contributions. I just wish sometimes engineers looked up from the keyboard to see the bigger social picture.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to overcome, just very difficult. This is cognitive dissonance territory, and a lot of people would rather just deny what's presented to them then reevaluate what they've been doing for a number of years.
imron 9y ago
> I really feel that engineers need to wake up to this kind of thing. Wake up to this thing? Who do you think is enabling it and laughing all the way to the bank and/or the VC money?
- bem94 9y ago
  True. But from my own experience I get the impression most engineers are ignorant in this regard rather than malicious. Though I'm happy (or not..) to see evidence to the contrary. We all enable it, I'm not sure the awareness of the full affect is there though.
  - imron 9y ago
    For me, it was being a software developer that made me aware of it.
karllager 9y ago
I once turned down an excellent offer in order to avoid working in AdTech. It was a lot of money and probably fun work, too. Not everybody can do this, and most people would consider me crazy for having turned done that kind of money. After all: it isn't illegal, right? One other day I met with a guy from a company, that branded itself a social startup. Do you know what social means? Social, like in society, like in living and working together? It means, I employ people to think about the best way to monetise your relationships with others. I admire technological progress and I believe it's the only chance we have. But the corporate, SV or VC double speak and the weak and irresistant minds of maybe 90% of the population makes western societies an awkward place to live.

by bem94 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

inanutshellus 9y ago

It's like any other thing in capitalism. You'll have a contingent of folk that won't do the work, based on ethical reasons, and you have folk that will, for financial reasons. Anecdotally, the few folks I know that work for data collection companies are all "tinfoil hat" types. They have flip-phones, they have no online presence, they smile like a Cheshire Cat when you ask them about it and you generally get the impression they've just decided to categorize it as "us" and "them". :-\

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bem94 9y ago
> It's like any other thing in capitalism. You'll have a contingent of folk that won't do the work, based on ethical reasons, and you have folk that will, for financial reasons. That is true, but going on my peers (especially the ones fresh from university), I think a dangerous proportion of people simply aren't aware on any level of the ethical implications of what they do. It's that which worries me.
- sixstringtheory 9y ago
  I don't think I've ever seen as much apathy in a classroom as my fellow CS majors displayed in our society and ethics course.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    > society and ethics course How was the course? I didn't have one, but many other "engineering ethics" courses I've seen inspire apathy just because they're terrible. It's like school anti-bullying campaigns - even if you're vehemently anti-bullying, most of the campaigns are too ridiculous to feel anything good about. On the other hand, something like Canada's Iron Ring seems to get taken very seriously. It seems like a nontrivial part of the challenge is teaching ethics in a way that reaches even the people who want to behave ethically.
    - sixstringtheory 9y ago
      It's true, it wasn't a mindblowingly exciting class or delivery. There were a handful of people who cared to ask questions beyond the prompts for group assignments or during lectures. A lot of people accepted as obvious fact that every household should have a humanoid robot, or e-government would make perfect decisions, or complete quantification of the individual couldn't possibly be abused. (These are just the ones that stand out in my memory.) Then you also have the garden variety folks playing minecraft, doing other coursework, etc. I'll also grant that I'm not very visionary or even great working/leading large groups of people. How would you teach a class exciting enough that virtually all students would attend it, enthusiastically, even if it were elective? (It was required for us.) At the end of the day, it's only going to be as exciting as the students make it by involving themselves and thinking. They are the ones creating tomorrow's startups, not the professors. As it stands, it seemed like quite the accurate litmus test for how many people care to think about issues in this way in our field.
  - fivestar 9y ago
    I can tell just from the postings on HN that SV people need better ethics training.
  - Asooka 9y ago
    Because "society and ethics" sound a lot like "bowing to the man", which coincidentally is exactly what this fine article is against. Because the man does stupid decisions based on flawed assumptions.
Pigo 9y ago
We had innovation team member spawn a project that would track how often call center reps were seated and monitor their activity. I had to be the party-pooper that brought up how Draconian his amazing idea was. I told our lead I refused to work on projects that spied on people to punish them, but would love to work on projects that reward people for doing a good job as long as it respects their privacy.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago

I don't think there's any risk of that. As I pull out my favorite quote for the last few months: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair Very few people in the upper echelons of society (like highly-paid Silicon Valley engineers) truly believe they're doing something wrong, or could even be convinced they are doing something wrong. Above a certain level on Mazlowe's hierarchy, people have selected where they work in part because of the mission. They have bought the company line because in part, the company line is what they're there for. People at Google don't work there because they really love advertising and really love putting banner ads in front of people. They work at Google because they believe they're 'making the world a better place'. And good luck convincing anyone that their purpose in life is a lie and that they're part of the problem. I've convinced exactly zero people so far. I mean, I'm sure Uber employees feel they're empowering people to work for themselves and helping people make a decent living who might otherwise be stuck unemployed. Maybe it took that many blatant scandals and fiascos for Travis Kalanick to come to terms with the fact that he wasn't making the world a better place?

bem94 9y ago
> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair One of my favourite quotes too, but I refuse to accept it as law. If people really do work at places like Google, Uber and Palantir to make the world a better place, then it suggests they would care if they are making the world a worse place inadvertantly, right? In which case it just takes education. If, on the other hand, they don't want to look too deeply into the social consequences of what they work on, then that is more difficult to deal with. All of these companies (especially Google) make some fantastic contributions. I just wish sometimes engineers looked up from the keyboard to see the bigger social picture.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  I'm not saying that it's impossible to overcome, just very difficult. This is cognitive dissonance territory, and a lot of people would rather just deny what's presented to them then reevaluate what they've been doing for a number of years.

imron 9y ago

> I really feel that engineers need to wake up to this kind of thing. Wake up to this thing? Who do you think is enabling it and laughing all the way to the bank and/or the VC money?

bem94 9y ago
True. But from my own experience I get the impression most engineers are ignorant in this regard rather than malicious. Though I'm happy (or not..) to see evidence to the contrary. We all enable it, I'm not sure the awareness of the full affect is there though.
- imron 9y ago
  For me, it was being a software developer that made me aware of it.

karllager 9y ago

I once turned down an excellent offer in order to avoid working in AdTech. It was a lot of money and probably fun work, too. Not everybody can do this, and most people would consider me crazy for having turned done that kind of money. After all: it isn't illegal, right? One other day I met with a guy from a company, that branded itself a social startup. Do you know what social means? Social, like in society, like in living and working together? It means, I employ people to think about the best way to monetise your relationships with others. I admire technological progress and I believe it's the only chance we have. But the corporate, SV or VC double speak and the weak and irresistant minds of maybe 90% of the population makes western societies an awkward place to live.