13 ms·

Australia has the most expensive energy bills

111 points by CPAhem 9y ago

dwhitworth1 9y ago
I moved to Newcastle, Australia from the US (Los Angeles) about two years ago. I was shocked when I received my energy bill. Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters, opting to just layer up when it's cold or try to use fans in the summer. Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. I would like to see how much energy the average Australian household consumes. I'm not sure how much consumption would go up if power got cheaper, but mine sure would... I really dislike being cold inside my own house. That said, I much prefer living in Australia to the U.S., especially while raising a family.
- chrisper 9y ago
  >That said, I much prefer living in Australia to the U.S., especially while raising a family. Why is that?
  - ythn 9y ago
    Because everyone is so much more energy efficient by virtue of high energy bills
    - dwhitworth1 9y ago
      LOL, and this too :P
  - nimchimpsky 9y ago
    Food is better, people are friendlier, sunnier, better quality of life, better stuff for kids. Less tax.
    - chrisper 9y ago
      Is it really sunnier than Southern California?
      - Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
        Depends where you live in Australia. Queensland? Sure. Victoria? Only in Summer where temperatures occasionally exceed 100 Fahrenheit, winters are cold. Tasmania? No, never.
        ariwilson 9y ago
        If you're talking about Los Angeles compared to even Brisbane, Queensland, this is wrong.
        Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
        > If you're talking about Los Angeles compared to even Brisbane, Queensland, this is wrong I wasn't, I meant what I wrote, and nothing more specific than that. Nonetheless, even comparing those two cities, I'm not sure "wrong" is an appropriate conclusion. It really depends on what metrics you're using. http://www.holiday-weather.com/brisbane/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/brisbane/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/los_angeles/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/los_angeles/averages/ LA certainly has more hours of sunlight, but it's not nearly as warm. However, hours of sunlight probably isn't what people mean when they say "sunnier", or else the Arctic would be a popular tourist destinations for "sun seekers" during its Summer.
        daemin 9y ago
        LA and Sydney are natural comparisons, both are large cities with similar climates. Although I would argue that LA is drier (despite it raining both times I have visited).
      - nl 9y ago
        It's a pretty big country ;) LA gets 284 sunny days a year (which is a lot!). By comparison, Sydney gets 236,but Perth gets 265. Here is a site listing Australian cities: https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Australia/Cities/sunshine-annual-average.php https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Australia/Cities/suns... Plenty of places hotter than LA if it is the heat you are interested in. Adelaide had a heatwave a few years ago where it didn't drop below 35C for 10 nights straight, and had days over 46C.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    Healthcare and college won't bankrupt you?
  - Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
    It's obviously a subjective matter. However, seems as he specifically mentioned "while raising a family", here are a few possible reasons: - Safety In general Australia has a lower crime rate than USA. Of course, there are absolutely areas within USA that would have a lower crime rate than certain areas of Australia. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/U... - Health Care Australia has well established free public health care that covers general illness, radiology, necessary surgeries, disabilities etc. Higher income earners are expected to also have private health insurance and are penalised in their taxes if they don't have it. However, if you're a low(er) income earner or simply prefer the public health system it works quite well. https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/dhs/medicare https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/dhs/medicare There's also a pretty solid Welfare system if you are worried about income stability for whatever reason. The free public education system is also quite good, although I'm unclear on how it compares to the USA. Of course, there are also many benefits to living in the USA over Australia - particularly if you're working in the tech sector. There is a strong tech scene in Australian capital cities, but it's fairly quiet elsewhere. There's nothing comparable to Silicon Valley. Depending on your business, the USA can also be a better place to start your own business - larger sales capacity (if you can deal with the fact States have very different taxation rules etc.) and significantly more VC opportunities (although Australia is slowly picking up its game). Film and TV industries are also obviously miles behind LA or even New York. So if that's an industry you're interested in then USA is the place to be. However, Australia seems to compare fairly favourably when raising a family is your biggest priority, say over career advancement.
    - dwhitworth1 9y ago
      I agree with all your points. I worked in the entertainment industry when I was in L.A. Now, I work in tech as a software engineer. I feel my professional prospects were a bit stronger in the U.S., and I still prefer living in Oz. I also feel like there was more pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" in SoCal. Mind you, I live in Newcastle, so I kinda avoid the housing problem that we have in Sydney and (now) Melbourne.
    - dwhitworth1 9y ago
  - dwhitworth1 9y ago
    A number of reasons: 1. Safety. I don't hear gunfire on New Year's Eve, like we used to in L.A. and some places I lived in Orange County as well. Someone getting shot is almost national news here. 2. Government support. If I lost my job I wouldn't have to worry about how to pay for health services. We're a healthy family, but peace of mind is great. 3. Government support. My 7 year old was diagnosed with mild ASD, ADHD and Dyslexia in Kindergarten. The National Disability Insurance Scheme has helped us pay for Occupational Therapy, Speech Pathology and Psychology. She has very much thrived here, and we are grateful for it. 4. Professional environment. This might be anec-data (all of it might), but mine and my wife's workplaces are very flexible when it comes to taking care of family matters. There are TONS of things I miss about living in Southern California (it still feels like home in many ways, good Mexican food, Disneyland, running my AC non-stop all Summer!, etc), but, for us, the pros outweigh the cons.
    - chrisper 9y ago
      Thanks. I will be moving (back) to Europe in a few weeks. I, too, decided like you to put certain pros over salary / career.
    - taway_1212 9y ago
      > 2. Government support. If I lost my job I wouldn't have to worry about how to pay for health services. Isn't there a health program in the US (Medicaid?) specifically for people with limited/no income? Is it insufficient?
- JonRB 9y ago
  > Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters Anecdotal, but I don't think I know a single person here who is hesitant to use heating/AC - could just be down to the people I know, but I get funny looks when I tell people just to wrap up. Something that did surprise me here is the near-complete lack of double glazing. Everywhere I've lived has been thin single-glazed windows which just let out all of the heat/cold. It's bizarre.
  - rosege 9y ago
    Im in Sydney and I've got an AC unit from the 70s or 80s in a house I recently bought. Im very hesitant to turn it on as I know it will be super inefficient. Im hoping to replace it later in the year. But until then its layer up! unless guests are coming over.
    - askvictor 9y ago
      Would it actually be that inefficient? I honestly don't know, but am curious if the tech has changed that significantly. Consider lifecycle costs (both financial and resources) before replacing it; might just need a clean and service.
      - ferongr 9y ago
        In my case at least, replacing a 70s Carrier "window A/C" (that was actually embedded in a hole in the wall instead of a window) with a modern ductless mini-split with inverter-powered compressor resulted in almost 70% lower power consumption, not to mention the fact that the new unit is virtually silent.
  - sundvor 9y ago
    Yeah, see my other comment. Australian builders / the whole building industry is downright ignorant and just about completely incompetent when it comes to thermal management.
  - NamTaf 9y ago
    I avoid using my AC but I'm just really cheap and don't mind suffering through heat too badly. It helps that I also work in an office fulltime so that's full HVAC and I'm not home during most days when it's bad. I also love the cold (to the extent that QLD has cold) so right now I'm in a shirt and shorts and loving it.
- askvictor 9y ago
  > Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters, opting to just layer up when it's cold or try to use fans in the summer. Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. Are you suggesting these are bad things? I think they're positive however, it varies wildly across different locations and demographics. > I would like to see how much energy the average Australian household consumes. Again, an average figure wouldn't be that insightful, as there are probably massive differences in different populations. Additionally, building standards change things considerably (presence or lack of insulation, double glazing, ceiling height, aspect) - certain eras and locations (often due to regulations) get these things right, others don't. I'm not sure how much consumption would go up if power got cheaper, but mine sure would... I really dislike being cold inside my own house. That said, I much prefer living in Australia to the U.S., especially while raising a family.
  - dwhitworth1 9y ago
    "Are you suggesting these are bad things? I think they're positive however, it varies wildly across different locations and demographics." I didn't think I suggested these were bad things. Perhaps I was just over-generalising. I was just pointing out (badly) that my observations from living in Newcastle are different than my observations living in Southern California. I agree that they are positive.
  - roenxi 9y ago
    > Are you suggesting these are bad things? As a local; yes it is a bad thing. I want cheap energy. Cheap access to energy is literally one of two things separating us from animals. The other thing is higher intelligence. There is room for an ideological debate on the meaning of good, but this is an outcome of regulation that the government didn't push for and that the votes would not choose if they had to tick a box.
    - fineline 9y ago
      And opposable thumbs.
  - burntrelish1273 9y ago
- martalist 9y ago
  >Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. We have a clothes dryer in our home (in Australia), and have used it about once a year over the last 10 years. Usually only in an "emergency". Generally speaking it's always warm enough to dry laundry naturally here, which is why dryers are not so common. > opting to just layer up when it's cold or try to use fans in the summer. Insulation in Australian homes is generally terrible. I wish it were different. But I have rarely seen people hesitate to use a heater or AC.
- daemin 9y ago
  > Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. Why bother having a clothes dryer when for most of the year you can hang them up in the shade and they will be dry within the hour. There are only a couple of states/regions where it makes sense to use a clothes dryer. The blue mountains and I imagine Tasmania where it gets too cold to hang your clothes up in the winter. > I would like to see how much energy the average Australian household consumes. From memory for just myself in a small apartment I used around 9-12 kWh / day. That is rarely using the A/C but having at least one PC running 24/7.
  - falsedan 9y ago
    > The blue mountains and I imagine Tasmania where it gets too cold to hang your clothes up in the winter. Clothes get dry regardless of the temperature: if it's cold enough, the water will freeze and then the ice sublimates into the lower-humidity atmosphere.
    - cromulent 9y ago
      Depends on the humidity, not just the temperature. I remember hanging my clothes up to dry whilst in Darwin, and they took literally days to get somewhat close to dry.
      - falsedan 9y ago
        Exactly my point: the temperature in the top end is not cold, and clothes take ages to dry.
        cromulent 9y ago
        No, orthogonal to your point :) The temperature was only around 23c. In the same temperature in Melbourne, they dry in an hour or two.
        falsedan 9y ago
        No, same as my point: clothes will dry at any temperature, if the humidity is low enough.
- megablast 9y ago
  This is a good thing. We also don't leave our taps on wasting water.
- flashman 9y ago
  How is the Newcastle tech industry? Sydney is nigh-on unaffordable (on 1.2 incomes with two children) and we're thinking about a move, but only if there's work I can do.
rayiner 9y ago
> And basically, they stuffed that up for consumers by deciding to let the networks earn a guaranteed rate of return, based on their costs. That is, the more they spent, the more they earned. This is an ignorant criticism. Every way of structuring utility markets has one problem or the other. If you deregulate the market, you end up with limited competition because of high barriers to entry. If you set rates to guarantee a fixed return on investment, you incentivize gold plating the network. And if you have the government set price caps, you get politicized prices that are too low and starve the utility of money needed to improve the network. Out of the alternatives, rate of return regulation is probably the least bad option. Also, there are worse things than high prices limiting demand for coal-based electricity.
- Retric 9y ago
  You can have a more complex structure that mixes different incentives. EX: Cost + with reductions in profit based on expected net costs. The problem really comes down to competent regulators, but sadly that's often a major hurdle.
- manicdee 9y ago
  This gold plating cost-plus work in Australia was about the Government funding infrastructure improvements without checking the demand forecasts. The network has been built for doubling of demand, even as demand is dropping due to customers using more efficient devices all the way from TVs to HVAC.
surfmike 9y ago
Sounds like an ideal market for home solar and Tesla powerwalls.
- daleroberts 9y ago
  What I've heard from people installing solar at home is that even though you install solar and a battery, you are not allowed to disconnect from the network unless you are a rural property. can anyone confirm this?
  - crispinb 9y ago
    I have stayed in off-grid AirBnBs in urban areas, so it is presumably legal (though there might be jurisdictional differences between States).
  - aplummer 9y ago
    I don't know about this one, but I'm not sure why you would. A lot of that investment gets paid back by feeding energy back into the grid - you would be throwing money away.
    - crispinb 9y ago
      Because network costs are extremely high, and ideological machinations render these (and feed-ins) subject to ongoing uncertainty.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      Net metering is under heavy pressure from utilities because it costs them a lot. They'd also like connection fees to pay for the infrastructure they have to maintain, even if you aren't using (much of) their electricity.
      - TheSmiddy 9y ago
        We don't do raw net metering in Australia. You pay 30-40c/kWh on the way in and get 8c/kWh on the way out. Utility is still profiting nicely.
andybak 9y ago
There's an old joke where in Heaven the cooks are French, the policemen are English, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and the bankers are Swiss - whereas in Hell the cooks are English, the policemen are German, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss and the bankers are Italian. I'm pondering an updated version where in hell the healthcare system is American, the energy market is Australian... Anyone care to finish it off?
- bitwize 9y ago
  I've heard the joke told as: Canada could have had English culture, French cuisine, and American industry... instead it has American culture, English cuisine, and French industry.
  - grecy 9y ago
    What's amazing about that joke is Canada is a much better place to live than all of those countries, so I assume those countries tell it because they are jealous. (I have lived in the USA / Canada / Australia, my sister in France & England for many years)
    - rfrey 9y ago
      > so I assume those countries tell it because they are jealous Naw, that Canadians find that joke hilarious is part of why it's a great place to live.
- nimchimpsky 9y ago
  The policemen are english ? Eh, why is that a thing, never heard that before. I've heard similar but it was organising a party ... Good party : Germans organise English music French food Belgians beer Bad : Belgians organize English food french music germans beer. Wait german beer is quite nice, well you get the idea.
  - mrob 9y ago
    British police aren't perfect, but I'd trust them more than police from most other countries. When Sir Robert Peel founded the Metropolitan Police in 1829, he based it on the "Peelian principles" - the idea that the police operate with the consent of society as a whole. Policing in the rest of the country followed the same model. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles These principles are still mostly respected today.
ontario_sucks 9y ago
Hmm. Price per kWh is not really a good way to compare. My last bill in Ontario had about $10 in usage in kWh but on top of that there are mandatory 'delivery' charges which, in my case, amounted to $90. The real rate I pay (before taxes) is essentially 10x the supposed kWh rate. And from the news reports locally, I'm getting off very lightly. My bills are multiples what they were in the UK (for the same usage) and based on that and the chart in the article, of the UK @ AU$0.30 vs just under AU$0.40 as the AU peak price, it seems more likely Canada (specifically Ontario) is much more expensive.
- NamTaf 9y ago
  In QLD my rates are as follows, GST included: Supply charge: $1.10/day Usage rate: 28.6c/kWh Therefore, my standard quarterly bill will have $100 of supply charges in addition to any usage that occurs. I am super lucky that I got on to PV when there was a large (unsustainably so) government incentive, so my feed-in rate is 54.6c/kWh (not including GST) which more than offsets my normal use since I am never home during the day and thus feed that all in, then use power at night at the 28.6c rate. I essentially get a negative bill as a result (told you it was unsustainable). Nowadays, the feed-in for new contracts is just 6c or so, hence people now look to invest in using that power, or having battery storage.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    The fact one person gets negative bills doesn't mean it's unsustainable. It's only unsustainable if it costs more in energy storage + standby infrastructure + your negative bill than it costs to run the usual energy production pipeline. That may be the case, but it's unrelated to whether you're paid back or not.
    - NamTaf 9y ago
      It's unsustainable in that many people jumped on this deal, far more than forecast, and so they pulled it years ago. The government had essentially subsidised solar through feed-in tariff bonuses, but hadn't expected the volume of people who ultimately took it up. It's also my understanding is that's not how the infrastructure works. It's simply not set up such that my feeding in could be sent arbitrarily to a storage point. Indeed, a colleague of mine was having his inverter trip during summer because his + many of his neighbours were all feeding in however none were drawing out. The grid was therefore being overloaded locally and all of the inverters were hitting their automatic cut-off points because of it. So yes, in theory it could be sustainable, but this particular situation absolutely wasn't and if you were to get solar now, you would not end up making money off feeding in like I do. It's now purely to offset self-usage.
sundvor 9y ago
I live in Victoria, Australia. Energy bills are through the roof - almost literally as "insulation" is a thing just about no-one here has any competence with. Whatsoever. I'm talking about builders and building code designers specifically. Ironically (see the top and bottom positions of the chart), I spent the first 40% of my life in Norway where things do get proper cold as opposed to in Australia where it's accepted to just have a heater pumping hot air through literal slits in the building (e.g. 0.5cm gaps under the external doors, that sort of nonsense), resulting in houses that are never properly comfortable at horrific expense. Yet in Norway the houses are actually insulated for deep, real winters and don't even need active heating at the temperatures costing Australians a fortune (eg 5-15c). I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get single glaced windows in Norway (because it's actually illegal to use), yet here it's a "luxury" item which is priced as you'd expect when not a standard. This gets my blood boiling (hey, free heating). On a side note, I just started ETH mining on a Pascal GPU, and can still turn a profit. If I still lived in Norway I'd buy a lot of GPUs..
- viraptor 9y ago
  > I'm talking about builders and building code designers specifically. Noone is a bad generalisation here. There are designers and builders who do know and do care - you just pay extra for the design and extra for materials. If you get a project house on a new estate (like lots of people do)... you're basically getting cheap and simple result that's cheap and simple. Source: talking to a designer about just that.
  - sundvor 9y ago
    I actually wrote _just about noone_, to cover that, as it's just not common knowledge. Of course you can source specialists, but it's the exception and not the rule. Most investment properties are done on the cheap, shifting the cost asymmetrically to the renters - cross ref the whole negative gearing debate and all. Minimum standards need to be increased dramatically, yet very little is happening. When some of the earlier Energy Star "standards" were released a few years back, they were just a bad joke - eg door gaps still came part and parcel, however you'd get like a "solar water heating" checkbox.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
Sort of on-topic but I recall once an Australian company called Enviromission that was wanting to build solar updraft towers in the outback. With so much incredibly solar-rich, un-used land, I thought Australia would've gone all in for solar by now.
- NamTaf 9y ago
  You greatly underestimate how utterly devoid of morals both of our major parties are, resulting in them being in the pocket of the coal miners and other big corps. They are almost militantly opposed to non-coal, non-LNG investment. This is a government which earlier this year brought a lump of coal in to parliament as a prop to say that they were 'not afraid of coal' and to attack the opposition for 'attacking the jobs of rural workers at the coal mines'. I'm not even joking: https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/feb/09/scott-morrison-brings-a-chunk-of-coal-into-parliament-video https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/feb/09/scott-m...
  - Overtonwindow 9y ago
    That is unfortunate. I spent a month living in Ryde and I fell absolutely in love with Australia. I agree, as Bill Bryson once said: "It may truly be the greatest place on earth." Hopefully things sort itself out soon.
    - NamTaf 9y ago
      I hope so too. It truly is a lovely place and I'm blessed to live here, however our politicians across the board and with very few exceptions leave a lot to be desired. Australian politics is truly awful.
    - voltagex_ 9y ago
      I think there's a big problem with most voters remembering the Good Times under a Liberal government when we had a massive mining boom and the country was doing well. Now things are slowing down - I suspect the next few decades will be bumpy when China stops buying everything we dig up out of the ground. Things could have been much better if we'd taxed the hell out of the miners, like Norway's Oil Fund.
elyobo 9y ago
Funny, as a Kiwi living in Victoria it seems to me that, while prices have climbed a bit over the last few years, electricity costs here were incredibly low... I wish NZ was represented on that chart. That said, my per kWh charge is about half the "market" price shown for Victoria there (although I do pay $0.94/day on top of that, which I guess brings it up a little), and that's after a 10% price hike about a year ago. Who's paying those prices?
- craigds 9y ago
  NZ is on the chart
  - elyobo 9y ago
    Thanks, not sure how I missed it. Prices seem to be highly variable even within the state, which I didn't realise. My rates in VIC are about half those quoted for VIC, well under the price of NZ. It would be interesting to see these prices broken down in more detail geographically.
mrslave 9y ago
And there's no inflation. Nothing to see here folks. Please move along.
- elyobo 9y ago
  They just need to start including house prices in there and the inflation would be pretty clear...
  - taneq 9y ago
    That's not inflation, that's real growth in value because houses are a great investment yep you should invest in houses, everyone should invest in houses, they're great. And if young people want to buy houses we should help them get bigger loans so they can afford 'em, housing affordability is fine, it's not a bubble, can't be, not possible.
    - elyobo 9y ago
      Unsure whether to laugh or cry :D / :(
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
manoj_venkat92 9y ago
And instead of turning to solar power, they are letting Adani power build a coal plant? What is wrong with the government of Australia. And solar power's prices are on decline and are now getting lower than coal and it's clean energy, check any major business news sites like Bloomberg, NYTimes etc., If I am not wrong, Australia is a sunny place, so going solar was an obvious option and Elon Musk was even talking for giving them solar panels & batteries. WHatever happened to that?!!
- dovdovdov 9y ago
  I mean Elon's tweet VS. politicians' pockets' full of lobbyists' money.
  - jondubois 9y ago
    ... And Elon's pockets full of politicians' money.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > And instead of turning to solar power, they are letting Adani power build a coal plant? Coal mine not coal plant. AFAIK it'd mostly be for export (through Abbot Point and Hay Point, the former being very close to the Great Barrier Reef).
- ldp01 9y ago
  It does seem quite bizarre. The Finkel Report[1] sums up pretty well why coal isn't competitive. It can't keep up with the rapid changes in demand caused by existing intermittent generation. > "Rapid changes in power output from VRE generation need to be balanced with generation technology that has the ability to increase (ramp up) or decrease (ramp down) power output at the same time. Gas-fired generators have the ability to ‘fast ramp’. Most of Australia’s coal-fired generators do not" In America the EIA's latest energy outlook projects a (gentle) decline in coal usage out to 2040. This is a pretty conservative government agency. I really don't understand the obsession with coal. [1] - http://www.environment.gov.au/energy/publications/electricity-market-final-report http://www.environment.gov.au/energy/publications/electricit... [2] - https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/ https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/
rmm 9y ago
Some more context. South Australia went "all green" shutting down all their coal plants and betting big on wind and solar. However due to the peak issues etc. they now buy a lot of their power from the eastern states. Victoria uses brown coal (about 20% less energy when burned)
- daemin 9y ago
  That is completely false. There is no way the state could have all of its baseline power needs met by just solar and wind. As far as I know the power plant up in the port is still running and burning coal as it always did. The buying of peak electricity from interstate is more likely a factor of higher gas prices as mentioned in the article. This is because the coal fired plant in the port has gas turbines that get used when load spikes. Source: I used to live there, still have family and friends there.
  - bash-j 9y ago
    The Port Augusta coal power station was demolished. There are two gas power stations in Adelaide. One was mothballed, but the state government forced the owners to start it up again after a statewide power last year. The government plans to invest in a new gas power station, plus they have a 100 mil fund set up to invest in multiple energy storage solutions to help capture excess wind power.
    - daemin 9y ago
      I was thinking of the Torrens Island power station. Last I knew it was a coal fired power station along with gas turbines for peak load.
ldp01 9y ago
> "Power lines are natural monopolies. Traditionally they were all government owned. Jeff Kennett privatised Victorian networks, but until very recently, distribution networks in other states, such as NSW and Queensland, have remained government owned, with regulated pricing." This author sounds confused. An electrical network operator is a regulated monopoly whether it is government or privately owned. The regulation may be good or bad, but it is independent of who owns the assets. And why is it a surprise that building ANY sort of distribution network is inefficient in the third most sparsely populated country in the world[1]? At least in the West there is now a strong push for standalone power projects with a view to decommissioning some of the redundant infrastructure. [1] - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_popul...
andrewwharton 9y ago
It really is a death spiral in the making. As grid electricity prices rise: 1. Insulation and rooftop solar/domestic battery storage become more competitive / cost effective 2. Which drives adoption (including retrofitting to existing structures), reducing the demand for grid electricity 3. Which, due to the fixed network and distribution costs, becomes more expensive per kwh. Australia is primed for boom in domestic battery storage. Why? There's already a significant amount of roof top solar installed. And feed-in bonus tarifs (up to 40c/kwh which were used to drive roof top solar adoption) don't transfer when you sell a house. This means it's far more cost effective to keep the energy on site rather than sell it to the grid at 6c/kwh and buy it back at 25c/kwh. This combined with rapidly dropping costs for battery storage... It's going to be an interesting time to be a politician.
- andy_ppp 9y ago
  I find it strange that a huge number of governments aren't falling over themselves to get Tesla to build one of the roughly 100 needed giga factories in their country. Pay for it to be built, give crazy good loan deals etc. whatever it costs really to have energy independance has got to be worth it.
  - dagw 9y ago
    How does building a giga factory in your country lead to energy independence?
    - andy_ppp 9y ago
      By having a means of producing batteries you'll be able to rely on renewables won't you? I thought that was the whole idea?
      - vkou 9y ago
        Unless you have very limited supply of lithium, you will not be energy-independent. The real reason for it though is that, unlike what HN thinks, Tesla is also not the only company in the world capable of building a battery. That, and batteries are a terrible solution to long and medium-term energy storage.
sien 9y ago
This article is very poor. The actual report this comes from is here: http://cmeaustralia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/160708-FINAL-REPORT-OBS-INTERNATIONAL-PRICE-COMPARISON.pdf http://cmeaustralia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/160708... Note how they pick the one stat where AU prices are high. They say 'excluding taxes'. Looking at the full report a lot of Australian prices INCLUDING TAX are actually fairly cheap.
nautilus12 9y ago
Lol this explains the primitive technology guy on youtube
aembleton 9y ago
30c/KWH = ~18p/KWH [1] before tax. It varies by where you live and what tariff you're on but I pay ~10p/KWH, and this website suggests similar before the 5% VAT charge is put on [2]. 1. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=30aud+to+gbp&t=lm&atb=v55-6&ia=currency https://duckduckgo.com/?q=30aud+to+gbp&t=lm&atb=v55-6&ia=cur... 2. https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh
scardine 9y ago
On the other side, Paraguay is said to have one of the least expensive energy bills. According to a friend that moved a few bitcoin mining machines over the fence, Paraguay got free energy in exchange for letting Brazil build the Itaipu Dam on the Brazil/Paraguay border. This dam produces the same amount of energy as burning 434,000 galons of oil every day and supplies Paraguay with approximately 78% of its energy needs (Paraguay even sells some energy surplus back to Brazil).
Jedd 9y ago
If you'd like a good insight into the mismanagement or corruption (interpretation is left to how gracious you're feeling on the day) have a read of The Monthly's article from a couple of years ago headlined "How network companies lined their pockets and drove electricity prices through the roof" https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jess-hill/power-corrupts https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jes... For a country that generates so much wealth <sic> from digging stuff out of the ground and burning it (or selling it to other people to burn), the regrettable state of the nation could appear to the casual observer to be quite mysterious.

111 points by CPAhem 9y ago

I moved to Newcastle, Australia from the US (Los Angeles) about two years ago. I was shocked when I received my energy bill. Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters, opting to just layer up when it's cold or try to use fans in the summer. Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. I would like to see how much energy the average Australian household consumes. I'm not sure how much consumption would go up if power got cheaper, but mine sure would... I really dislike being cold inside my own house. That said, I much prefer living in Australia to the U.S., especially while raising a family.

chrisper 9y ago
>That said, I much prefer living in Australia to the U.S., especially while raising a family. Why is that?
- ythn 9y ago
  Because everyone is so much more energy efficient by virtue of high energy bills
  - dwhitworth1 9y ago
    LOL, and this too :P
- nimchimpsky 9y ago
  Food is better, people are friendlier, sunnier, better quality of life, better stuff for kids. Less tax.
  - chrisper 9y ago
    Is it really sunnier than Southern California?
    - Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
      Depends where you live in Australia. Queensland? Sure. Victoria? Only in Summer where temperatures occasionally exceed 100 Fahrenheit, winters are cold. Tasmania? No, never.
      - ariwilson 9y ago
        If you're talking about Los Angeles compared to even Brisbane, Queensland, this is wrong.
        Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
        > If you're talking about Los Angeles compared to even Brisbane, Queensland, this is wrong I wasn't, I meant what I wrote, and nothing more specific than that. Nonetheless, even comparing those two cities, I'm not sure "wrong" is an appropriate conclusion. It really depends on what metrics you're using. http://www.holiday-weather.com/brisbane/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/brisbane/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/los_angeles/averages/ http://www.holiday-weather.com/los_angeles/averages/ LA certainly has more hours of sunlight, but it's not nearly as warm. However, hours of sunlight probably isn't what people mean when they say "sunnier", or else the Arctic would be a popular tourist destinations for "sun seekers" during its Summer.
        daemin 9y ago
        LA and Sydney are natural comparisons, both are large cities with similar climates. Although I would argue that LA is drier (despite it raining both times I have visited).
    - nl 9y ago
      It's a pretty big country ;) LA gets 284 sunny days a year (which is a lot!). By comparison, Sydney gets 236,but Perth gets 265. Here is a site listing Australian cities: https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Australia/Cities/sunshine-annual-average.php https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Australia/Cities/suns... Plenty of places hotter than LA if it is the heat you are interested in. Adelaide had a heatwave a few years ago where it didn't drop below 35C for 10 nights straight, and had days over 46C.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  Healthcare and college won't bankrupt you?
- Benjamin_Dobell 9y ago
  It's obviously a subjective matter. However, seems as he specifically mentioned "while raising a family", here are a few possible reasons: - Safety In general Australia has a lower crime rate than USA. Of course, there are absolutely areas within USA that would have a lower crime rate than certain areas of Australia. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/U... - Health Care Australia has well established free public health care that covers general illness, radiology, necessary surgeries, disabilities etc. Higher income earners are expected to also have private health insurance and are penalised in their taxes if they don't have it. However, if you're a low(er) income earner or simply prefer the public health system it works quite well. https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/dhs/medicare https://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/dhs/medicare There's also a pretty solid Welfare system if you are worried about income stability for whatever reason. The free public education system is also quite good, although I'm unclear on how it compares to the USA. Of course, there are also many benefits to living in the USA over Australia - particularly if you're working in the tech sector. There is a strong tech scene in Australian capital cities, but it's fairly quiet elsewhere. There's nothing comparable to Silicon Valley. Depending on your business, the USA can also be a better place to start your own business - larger sales capacity (if you can deal with the fact States have very different taxation rules etc.) and significantly more VC opportunities (although Australia is slowly picking up its game). Film and TV industries are also obviously miles behind LA or even New York. So if that's an industry you're interested in then USA is the place to be. However, Australia seems to compare fairly favourably when raising a family is your biggest priority, say over career advancement.
  - dwhitworth1 9y ago
    I agree with all your points. I worked in the entertainment industry when I was in L.A. Now, I work in tech as a software engineer. I feel my professional prospects were a bit stronger in the U.S., and I still prefer living in Oz. I also feel like there was more pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" in SoCal. Mind you, I live in Newcastle, so I kinda avoid the housing problem that we have in Sydney and (now) Melbourne.
  - dwhitworth1 9y ago
- dwhitworth1 9y ago
  A number of reasons: 1. Safety. I don't hear gunfire on New Year's Eve, like we used to in L.A. and some places I lived in Orange County as well. Someone getting shot is almost national news here. 2. Government support. If I lost my job I wouldn't have to worry about how to pay for health services. We're a healthy family, but peace of mind is great. 3. Government support. My 7 year old was diagnosed with mild ASD, ADHD and Dyslexia in Kindergarten. The National Disability Insurance Scheme has helped us pay for Occupational Therapy, Speech Pathology and Psychology. She has very much thrived here, and we are grateful for it. 4. Professional environment. This might be anec-data (all of it might), but mine and my wife's workplaces are very flexible when it comes to taking care of family matters. There are TONS of things I miss about living in Southern California (it still feels like home in many ways, good Mexican food, Disneyland, running my AC non-stop all Summer!, etc), but, for us, the pros outweigh the cons.
  - chrisper 9y ago
    Thanks. I will be moving (back) to Europe in a few weeks. I, too, decided like you to put certain pros over salary / career.
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    > 2. Government support. If I lost my job I wouldn't have to worry about how to pay for health services. Isn't there a health program in the US (Medicaid?) specifically for people with limited/no income? Is it insufficient?
JonRB 9y ago
> Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters Anecdotal, but I don't think I know a single person here who is hesitant to use heating/AC - could just be down to the people I know, but I get funny looks when I tell people just to wrap up. Something that did surprise me here is the near-complete lack of double glazing. Everywhere I've lived has been thin single-glazed windows which just let out all of the heat/cold. It's bizarre.
- rosege 9y ago
  Im in Sydney and I've got an AC unit from the 70s or 80s in a house I recently bought. Im very hesitant to turn it on as I know it will be super inefficient. Im hoping to replace it later in the year. But until then its layer up! unless guests are coming over.
  - askvictor 9y ago
    Would it actually be that inefficient? I honestly don't know, but am curious if the tech has changed that significantly. Consider lifecycle costs (both financial and resources) before replacing it; might just need a clean and service.
    - ferongr 9y ago
      In my case at least, replacing a 70s Carrier "window A/C" (that was actually embedded in a hole in the wall instead of a window) with a modern ductless mini-split with inverter-powered compressor resulted in almost 70% lower power consumption, not to mention the fact that the new unit is virtually silent.
- sundvor 9y ago
  Yeah, see my other comment. Australian builders / the whole building industry is downright ignorant and just about completely incompetent when it comes to thermal management.
- NamTaf 9y ago
  I avoid using my AC but I'm just really cheap and don't mind suffering through heat too badly. It helps that I also work in an office fulltime so that's full HVAC and I'm not home during most days when it's bad. I also love the cold (to the extent that QLD has cold) so right now I'm in a shirt and shorts and loving it.
askvictor 9y ago
> Australians in general are hesitant to use their AC or electric heaters, opting to just layer up when it's cold or try to use fans in the summer. Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. Are you suggesting these are bad things? I think they're positive however, it varies wildly across different locations and demographics. > I would like to see how much energy the average Australian household consumes. Again, an average figure wouldn't be that insightful, as there are probably massive differences in different populations. Additionally, building standards change things considerably (presence or lack of insulation, double glazing, ceiling height, aspect) - certain eras and locations (often due to regulations) get these things right, others don't. I'm not sure how much consumption would go up if power got cheaper, but mine sure would... I really dislike being cold inside my own house. That said, I much prefer living in Australia to the U.S., especially while raising a family.
- dwhitworth1 9y ago
  "Are you suggesting these are bad things? I think they're positive however, it varies wildly across different locations and demographics." I didn't think I suggested these were bad things. Perhaps I was just over-generalising. I was just pointing out (badly) that my observations from living in Newcastle are different than my observations living in Southern California. I agree that they are positive.
- roenxi 9y ago
  > Are you suggesting these are bad things? As a local; yes it is a bad thing. I want cheap energy. Cheap access to energy is literally one of two things separating us from animals. The other thing is higher intelligence. There is room for an ideological debate on the meaning of good, but this is an outcome of regulation that the government didn't push for and that the votes would not choose if they had to tick a box.
  - fineline 9y ago
    And opposable thumbs.
- burntrelish1273 9y ago
martalist 9y ago
>Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. We have a clothes dryer in our home (in Australia), and have used it about once a year over the last 10 years. Usually only in an "emergency". Generally speaking it's always warm enough to dry laundry naturally here, which is why dryers are not so common. > opting to just layer up when it's cold or try to use fans in the summer. Insulation in Australian homes is generally terrible. I wish it were different. But I have rarely seen people hesitate to use a heater or AC.
daemin 9y ago
> Many (most?) households don't have clothes dryers, using clotheslines instead. Why bother having a clothes dryer when for most of the year you can hang them up in the shade and they will be dry within the hour. There are only a couple of states/regions where it makes sense to use a clothes dryer. The blue mountains and I imagine Tasmania where it gets too cold to hang your clothes up in the winter. > I would like to see how much energy the average Australian household consumes. From memory for just myself in a small apartment I used around 9-12 kWh / day. That is rarely using the A/C but having at least one PC running 24/7.
- falsedan 9y ago
  > The blue mountains and I imagine Tasmania where it gets too cold to hang your clothes up in the winter. Clothes get dry regardless of the temperature: if it's cold enough, the water will freeze and then the ice sublimates into the lower-humidity atmosphere.
  - cromulent 9y ago
    Depends on the humidity, not just the temperature. I remember hanging my clothes up to dry whilst in Darwin, and they took literally days to get somewhat close to dry.
    - falsedan 9y ago
      Exactly my point: the temperature in the top end is not cold, and clothes take ages to dry.
      - cromulent 9y ago
        No, orthogonal to your point :) The temperature was only around 23c. In the same temperature in Melbourne, they dry in an hour or two.
        falsedan 9y ago
        No, same as my point: clothes will dry at any temperature, if the humidity is low enough.
megablast 9y ago
This is a good thing. We also don't leave our taps on wasting water.
flashman 9y ago
How is the Newcastle tech industry? Sydney is nigh-on unaffordable (on 1.2 incomes with two children) and we're thinking about a move, but only if there's work I can do.

rayiner 9y ago

> And basically, they stuffed that up for consumers by deciding to let the networks earn a guaranteed rate of return, based on their costs. That is, the more they spent, the more they earned. This is an ignorant criticism. Every way of structuring utility markets has one problem or the other. If you deregulate the market, you end up with limited competition because of high barriers to entry. If you set rates to guarantee a fixed return on investment, you incentivize gold plating the network. And if you have the government set price caps, you get politicized prices that are too low and starve the utility of money needed to improve the network. Out of the alternatives, rate of return regulation is probably the least bad option. Also, there are worse things than high prices limiting demand for coal-based electricity.

Retric 9y ago
You can have a more complex structure that mixes different incentives. EX: Cost + with reductions in profit based on expected net costs. The problem really comes down to competent regulators, but sadly that's often a major hurdle.
manicdee 9y ago
This gold plating cost-plus work in Australia was about the Government funding infrastructure improvements without checking the demand forecasts. The network has been built for doubling of demand, even as demand is dropping due to customers using more efficient devices all the way from TVs to HVAC.

surfmike 9y ago

Sounds like an ideal market for home solar and Tesla powerwalls.

daleroberts 9y ago
What I've heard from people installing solar at home is that even though you install solar and a battery, you are not allowed to disconnect from the network unless you are a rural property. can anyone confirm this?
- crispinb 9y ago
  I have stayed in off-grid AirBnBs in urban areas, so it is presumably legal (though there might be jurisdictional differences between States).
- aplummer 9y ago
  I don't know about this one, but I'm not sure why you would. A lot of that investment gets paid back by feeding energy back into the grid - you would be throwing money away.
  - crispinb 9y ago
    Because network costs are extremely high, and ideological machinations render these (and feed-ins) subject to ongoing uncertainty.
  - kbutler 9y ago
    Net metering is under heavy pressure from utilities because it costs them a lot. They'd also like connection fees to pay for the infrastructure they have to maintain, even if you aren't using (much of) their electricity.
    - TheSmiddy 9y ago
      We don't do raw net metering in Australia. You pay 30-40c/kWh on the way in and get 8c/kWh on the way out. Utility is still profiting nicely.

andybak 9y ago

There's an old joke where in Heaven the cooks are French, the policemen are English, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and the bankers are Swiss - whereas in Hell the cooks are English, the policemen are German, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss and the bankers are Italian. I'm pondering an updated version where in hell the healthcare system is American, the energy market is Australian... Anyone care to finish it off?

bitwize 9y ago
I've heard the joke told as: Canada could have had English culture, French cuisine, and American industry... instead it has American culture, English cuisine, and French industry.
- grecy 9y ago
  What's amazing about that joke is Canada is a much better place to live than all of those countries, so I assume those countries tell it because they are jealous. (I have lived in the USA / Canada / Australia, my sister in France & England for many years)
  - rfrey 9y ago
    > so I assume those countries tell it because they are jealous Naw, that Canadians find that joke hilarious is part of why it's a great place to live.
nimchimpsky 9y ago
The policemen are english ? Eh, why is that a thing, never heard that before. I've heard similar but it was organising a party ... Good party : Germans organise English music French food Belgians beer Bad : Belgians organize English food french music germans beer. Wait german beer is quite nice, well you get the idea.
- mrob 9y ago
  British police aren't perfect, but I'd trust them more than police from most other countries. When Sir Robert Peel founded the Metropolitan Police in 1829, he based it on the "Peelian principles" - the idea that the police operate with the consent of society as a whole. Policing in the rest of the country followed the same model. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles These principles are still mostly respected today.

ontario_sucks 9y ago

Hmm. Price per kWh is not really a good way to compare. My last bill in Ontario had about $10 in usage in kWh but on top of that there are mandatory 'delivery' charges which, in my case, amounted to $90. The real rate I pay (before taxes) is essentially 10x the supposed kWh rate. And from the news reports locally, I'm getting off very lightly. My bills are multiples what they were in the UK (for the same usage) and based on that and the chart in the article, of the UK @ AU$0.30 vs just under AU$0.40 as the AU peak price, it seems more likely Canada (specifically Ontario) is much more expensive.

NamTaf 9y ago
In QLD my rates are as follows, GST included: Supply charge: $1.10/day Usage rate: 28.6c/kWh Therefore, my standard quarterly bill will have $100 of supply charges in addition to any usage that occurs. I am super lucky that I got on to PV when there was a large (unsustainably so) government incentive, so my feed-in rate is 54.6c/kWh (not including GST) which more than offsets my normal use since I am never home during the day and thus feed that all in, then use power at night at the 28.6c rate. I essentially get a negative bill as a result (told you it was unsustainable). Nowadays, the feed-in for new contracts is just 6c or so, hence people now look to invest in using that power, or having battery storage.
- viraptor 9y ago
  The fact one person gets negative bills doesn't mean it's unsustainable. It's only unsustainable if it costs more in energy storage + standby infrastructure + your negative bill than it costs to run the usual energy production pipeline. That may be the case, but it's unrelated to whether you're paid back or not.
  - NamTaf 9y ago
    It's unsustainable in that many people jumped on this deal, far more than forecast, and so they pulled it years ago. The government had essentially subsidised solar through feed-in tariff bonuses, but hadn't expected the volume of people who ultimately took it up. It's also my understanding is that's not how the infrastructure works. It's simply not set up such that my feeding in could be sent arbitrarily to a storage point. Indeed, a colleague of mine was having his inverter trip during summer because his + many of his neighbours were all feeding in however none were drawing out. The grid was therefore being overloaded locally and all of the inverters were hitting their automatic cut-off points because of it. So yes, in theory it could be sustainable, but this particular situation absolutely wasn't and if you were to get solar now, you would not end up making money off feeding in like I do. It's now purely to offset self-usage.

sundvor 9y ago

I live in Victoria, Australia. Energy bills are through the roof - almost literally as "insulation" is a thing just about no-one here has any competence with. Whatsoever. I'm talking about builders and building code designers specifically. Ironically (see the top and bottom positions of the chart), I spent the first 40% of my life in Norway where things do get proper cold as opposed to in Australia where it's accepted to just have a heater pumping hot air through literal slits in the building (e.g. 0.5cm gaps under the external doors, that sort of nonsense), resulting in houses that are never properly comfortable at horrific expense. Yet in Norway the houses are actually insulated for deep, real winters and don't even need active heating at the temperatures costing Australians a fortune (eg 5-15c). I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get single glaced windows in Norway (because it's actually illegal to use), yet here it's a "luxury" item which is priced as you'd expect when not a standard. This gets my blood boiling (hey, free heating). On a side note, I just started ETH mining on a Pascal GPU, and can still turn a profit. If I still lived in Norway I'd buy a lot of GPUs..

viraptor 9y ago
> I'm talking about builders and building code designers specifically. Noone is a bad generalisation here. There are designers and builders who do know and do care - you just pay extra for the design and extra for materials. If you get a project house on a new estate (like lots of people do)... you're basically getting cheap and simple result that's cheap and simple. Source: talking to a designer about just that.
- sundvor 9y ago
  I actually wrote _just about noone_, to cover that, as it's just not common knowledge. Of course you can source specialists, but it's the exception and not the rule. Most investment properties are done on the cheap, shifting the cost asymmetrically to the renters - cross ref the whole negative gearing debate and all. Minimum standards need to be increased dramatically, yet very little is happening. When some of the earlier Energy Star "standards" were released a few years back, they were just a bad joke - eg door gaps still came part and parcel, however you'd get like a "solar water heating" checkbox.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

Sort of on-topic but I recall once an Australian company called Enviromission that was wanting to build solar updraft towers in the outback. With so much incredibly solar-rich, un-used land, I thought Australia would've gone all in for solar by now.

NamTaf 9y ago
You greatly underestimate how utterly devoid of morals both of our major parties are, resulting in them being in the pocket of the coal miners and other big corps. They are almost militantly opposed to non-coal, non-LNG investment. This is a government which earlier this year brought a lump of coal in to parliament as a prop to say that they were 'not afraid of coal' and to attack the opposition for 'attacking the jobs of rural workers at the coal mines'. I'm not even joking: https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/feb/09/scott-morrison-brings-a-chunk-of-coal-into-parliament-video https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/feb/09/scott-m...
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  That is unfortunate. I spent a month living in Ryde and I fell absolutely in love with Australia. I agree, as Bill Bryson once said: "It may truly be the greatest place on earth." Hopefully things sort itself out soon.
  - NamTaf 9y ago
    I hope so too. It truly is a lovely place and I'm blessed to live here, however our politicians across the board and with very few exceptions leave a lot to be desired. Australian politics is truly awful.
  - voltagex_ 9y ago
    I think there's a big problem with most voters remembering the Good Times under a Liberal government when we had a massive mining boom and the country was doing well. Now things are slowing down - I suspect the next few decades will be bumpy when China stops buying everything we dig up out of the ground. Things could have been much better if we'd taxed the hell out of the miners, like Norway's Oil Fund.

elyobo 9y ago

Funny, as a Kiwi living in Victoria it seems to me that, while prices have climbed a bit over the last few years, electricity costs here were incredibly low... I wish NZ was represented on that chart. That said, my per kWh charge is about half the "market" price shown for Victoria there (although I do pay $0.94/day on top of that, which I guess brings it up a little), and that's after a 10% price hike about a year ago. Who's paying those prices?

craigds 9y ago
NZ is on the chart
- elyobo 9y ago
  Thanks, not sure how I missed it. Prices seem to be highly variable even within the state, which I didn't realise. My rates in VIC are about half those quoted for VIC, well under the price of NZ. It would be interesting to see these prices broken down in more detail geographically.

mrslave 9y ago

And there's no inflation. Nothing to see here folks. Please move along.

elyobo 9y ago
They just need to start including house prices in there and the inflation would be pretty clear...
- taneq 9y ago
  That's not inflation, that's real growth in value because houses are a great investment yep you should invest in houses, everyone should invest in houses, they're great. And if young people want to buy houses we should help them get bigger loans so they can afford 'em, housing affordability is fine, it's not a bubble, can't be, not possible.
  - elyobo 9y ago
    Unsure whether to laugh or cry :D / :(
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

manoj_venkat92 9y ago

And instead of turning to solar power, they are letting Adani power build a coal plant? What is wrong with the government of Australia. And solar power's prices are on decline and are now getting lower than coal and it's clean energy, check any major business news sites like Bloomberg, NYTimes etc., If I am not wrong, Australia is a sunny place, so going solar was an obvious option and Elon Musk was even talking for giving them solar panels & batteries. WHatever happened to that?!!

dovdovdov 9y ago
I mean Elon's tweet VS. politicians' pockets' full of lobbyists' money.
- jondubois 9y ago
  ... And Elon's pockets full of politicians' money.
masklinn 9y ago
> And instead of turning to solar power, they are letting Adani power build a coal plant? Coal mine not coal plant. AFAIK it'd mostly be for export (through Abbot Point and Hay Point, the former being very close to the Great Barrier Reef).
ldp01 9y ago
It does seem quite bizarre. The Finkel Report[1] sums up pretty well why coal isn't competitive. It can't keep up with the rapid changes in demand caused by existing intermittent generation. > "Rapid changes in power output from VRE generation need to be balanced with generation technology that has the ability to increase (ramp up) or decrease (ramp down) power output at the same time. Gas-fired generators have the ability to ‘fast ramp’. Most of Australia’s coal-fired generators do not" In America the EIA's latest energy outlook projects a (gentle) decline in coal usage out to 2040. This is a pretty conservative government agency. I really don't understand the obsession with coal. [1] - http://www.environment.gov.au/energy/publications/electricity-market-final-report http://www.environment.gov.au/energy/publications/electricit... [2] - https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/ https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/

rmm 9y ago

Some more context. South Australia went "all green" shutting down all their coal plants and betting big on wind and solar. However due to the peak issues etc. they now buy a lot of their power from the eastern states. Victoria uses brown coal (about 20% less energy when burned)

daemin 9y ago
That is completely false. There is no way the state could have all of its baseline power needs met by just solar and wind. As far as I know the power plant up in the port is still running and burning coal as it always did. The buying of peak electricity from interstate is more likely a factor of higher gas prices as mentioned in the article. This is because the coal fired plant in the port has gas turbines that get used when load spikes. Source: I used to live there, still have family and friends there.
- bash-j 9y ago
  The Port Augusta coal power station was demolished. There are two gas power stations in Adelaide. One was mothballed, but the state government forced the owners to start it up again after a statewide power last year. The government plans to invest in a new gas power station, plus they have a 100 mil fund set up to invest in multiple energy storage solutions to help capture excess wind power.
  - daemin 9y ago
    I was thinking of the Torrens Island power station. Last I knew it was a coal fired power station along with gas turbines for peak load.

ldp01 9y ago

> "Power lines are natural monopolies. Traditionally they were all government owned. Jeff Kennett privatised Victorian networks, but until very recently, distribution networks in other states, such as NSW and Queensland, have remained government owned, with regulated pricing." This author sounds confused. An electrical network operator is a regulated monopoly whether it is government or privately owned. The regulation may be good or bad, but it is independent of who owns the assets. And why is it a surprise that building ANY sort of distribution network is inefficient in the third most sparsely populated country in the world[1]? At least in the West there is now a strong push for standalone power projects with a view to decommissioning some of the redundant infrastructure. [1] - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_popul...

andrewwharton 9y ago

It really is a death spiral in the making. As grid electricity prices rise: 1. Insulation and rooftop solar/domestic battery storage become more competitive / cost effective 2. Which drives adoption (including retrofitting to existing structures), reducing the demand for grid electricity 3. Which, due to the fixed network and distribution costs, becomes more expensive per kwh. Australia is primed for boom in domestic battery storage. Why? There's already a significant amount of roof top solar installed. And feed-in bonus tarifs (up to 40c/kwh which were used to drive roof top solar adoption) don't transfer when you sell a house. This means it's far more cost effective to keep the energy on site rather than sell it to the grid at 6c/kwh and buy it back at 25c/kwh. This combined with rapidly dropping costs for battery storage... It's going to be an interesting time to be a politician.

andy_ppp 9y ago
I find it strange that a huge number of governments aren't falling over themselves to get Tesla to build one of the roughly 100 needed giga factories in their country. Pay for it to be built, give crazy good loan deals etc. whatever it costs really to have energy independance has got to be worth it.
- dagw 9y ago
  How does building a giga factory in your country lead to energy independence?
  - andy_ppp 9y ago
    By having a means of producing batteries you'll be able to rely on renewables won't you? I thought that was the whole idea?
    - vkou 9y ago
      Unless you have very limited supply of lithium, you will not be energy-independent. The real reason for it though is that, unlike what HN thinks, Tesla is also not the only company in the world capable of building a battery. That, and batteries are a terrible solution to long and medium-term energy storage.

sien 9y ago

This article is very poor. The actual report this comes from is here: http://cmeaustralia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/160708-FINAL-REPORT-OBS-INTERNATIONAL-PRICE-COMPARISON.pdf http://cmeaustralia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/160708... Note how they pick the one stat where AU prices are high. They say 'excluding taxes'. Looking at the full report a lot of Australian prices INCLUDING TAX are actually fairly cheap.

nautilus12 9y ago

Lol this explains the primitive technology guy on youtube

aembleton 9y ago

30c/KWH = ~18p/KWH [1] before tax. It varies by where you live and what tariff you're on but I pay ~10p/KWH, and this website suggests similar before the 5% VAT charge is put on [2]. 1. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=30aud+to+gbp&t=lm&atb=v55-6&ia=currency https://duckduckgo.com/?q=30aud+to+gbp&t=lm&atb=v55-6&ia=cur... 2. https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh

scardine 9y ago

On the other side, Paraguay is said to have one of the least expensive energy bills. According to a friend that moved a few bitcoin mining machines over the fence, Paraguay got free energy in exchange for letting Brazil build the Itaipu Dam on the Brazil/Paraguay border. This dam produces the same amount of energy as burning 434,000 galons of oil every day and supplies Paraguay with approximately 78% of its energy needs (Paraguay even sells some energy surplus back to Brazil).

Jedd 9y ago

If you'd like a good insight into the mismanagement or corruption (interpretation is left to how gracious you're feeling on the day) have a read of The Monthly's article from a couple of years ago headlined "How network companies lined their pockets and drove electricity prices through the roof" https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jess-hill/power-corrupts https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2014/july/1404136800/jes... For a country that generates so much wealth <sic> from digging stuff out of the ground and burning it (or selling it to other people to burn), the regrettable state of the nation could appear to the casual observer to be quite mysterious.