5 ms·

> every non-jr programmer should at least be able to talk about the technical and business merits of using one vs the other. So there is no place in this world

by clarry 9y ago

> every non-jr programmer should at least be able to talk about the technical and business merits of using one vs the other. So there is no place in this world for a senior programmer who isn't particularly familiar with those two languages? Why are they so special?

matthewmacleod 9y ago
I would expect a senior engineer working on Web technologies to be at least familiar enough with what both Java and Rails are to be able to start that conversation. It doesn’t require an in-depth knowledge of either, but this question would serve as a great way to get a basic level of an applicants knowledge.
- clarry 9y ago
  Meanwhile I could easily imagine a senior web developer with 15 years of programming experience having used JS, Python, Perl, PHP, ASP.NET, and a dozen non-web languages but never a single line of Ruby or Java.
  - matthewmacleod 9y ago
    I have never used either Perl Or ASP.NET. I would be comfortable talking about the difference between them at a high level regardless. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a senior developer to be familiar with the tools that are used in the trade generally, even if they have not used those tools themselves.
    - clarry 9y ago
      I think it is quite unreasonable. I honestly think that talking about some tools someone never needed is a terrible way to get the feel for a basic level of that applicant's knowledge. And it really doesn't tell you anything about them as a programmer. I think even fizzbuzz and linked list reversal would be more telling, and that's not much. Going by the translator analogy, I feel like it's asking say an Asian translator (who might command a few eastern languages with decades of solid experience) who never studied English and French to talk about English and French. Because in your world everyone skilled translator knows enough about English and French to at least have a useful conversation about them. It smells very elitistic. And pointless.
      - matthewmacleod 9y ago
        We'll just have to disagree on this one, I'm afraid. I would consider it a necessary job requirement for a senior developer to know about common technologies in the field they are working in. If that meant working on web applications, I would expect them to know what both Rails and Java are. I don't need them to be able to program in them; I need them to know what they are, why they exist, some of the key facts about them, where they might most commonly be used, that sort of thing. Over-specialisation to the extent that developers are unaware of technologies outside of their direct knowledge is a warning sign about a developer's skillset, to me. How can I trust that a developer is picking the correct tool for a job if they aren't aware of what tools are available?
        clarry 9y ago
        It's possible to be aware that certain tools exist and have an idea about what they're used for, and yet know little enough about them to butt into a discussion and give any sort of fruitful, educated opinion about them. My imaginary senior web developer knows more than a dozen languages. It is almost a given that one of these languages is technically sound and a reasonable choice for a given task, and that developer should be able to pick that language just fine. However, if there are other compelling reasons to look into other languages (for example because company wants cheap coders and think there's a large pool of cheap talent skilled in language X, or because the company needs to leverage the ecosystem surrounding language Y), that same senior developer is more than capable of doing a bit of research and evaluating these languages. You almost sound like one of these interviewers who think that a programmer who can't implement a red-black tree off the top of his head and state its worst case insertion complexity couldn't possibly be capable of looking it up and evaluating the relative merits of different data structures -- and thus cannot be trusted to any position where he might have to pick an algorithm. Nevermind if he could implement two dozen other data structures in his sleep. Over-specialization? Seriously? A programmer who's used more than a dozen programming languages is over-specialized because he can't discuss the two you want to talk about? The stench of elitism is only getting stronger here. You're assuming the worst of a programmer because his world doesn't revolve around the same things yours does, and you are assuming that despite their experience they probably will not try to or cannot educate themselves further. Unfortunately I see this sort of prejudiced attitude everywhere... "I think this is important so if you don't know this, you can't possibly be any good." Such statements reveal a rather narrow world view.

by clarry 9y ago

matthewmacleod 9y ago

I would expect a senior engineer working on Web technologies to be at least familiar enough with what both Java and Rails are to be able to start that conversation. It doesn’t require an in-depth knowledge of either, but this question would serve as a great way to get a basic level of an applicants knowledge.

clarry 9y ago
Meanwhile I could easily imagine a senior web developer with 15 years of programming experience having used JS, Python, Perl, PHP, ASP.NET, and a dozen non-web languages but never a single line of Ruby or Java.
- matthewmacleod 9y ago
  I have never used either Perl Or ASP.NET. I would be comfortable talking about the difference between them at a high level regardless. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a senior developer to be familiar with the tools that are used in the trade generally, even if they have not used those tools themselves.
  - clarry 9y ago
    I think it is quite unreasonable. I honestly think that talking about some tools someone never needed is a terrible way to get the feel for a basic level of that applicant's knowledge. And it really doesn't tell you anything about them as a programmer. I think even fizzbuzz and linked list reversal would be more telling, and that's not much. Going by the translator analogy, I feel like it's asking say an Asian translator (who might command a few eastern languages with decades of solid experience) who never studied English and French to talk about English and French. Because in your world everyone skilled translator knows enough about English and French to at least have a useful conversation about them. It smells very elitistic. And pointless.
    - matthewmacleod 9y ago
      We'll just have to disagree on this one, I'm afraid. I would consider it a necessary job requirement for a senior developer to know about common technologies in the field they are working in. If that meant working on web applications, I would expect them to know what both Rails and Java are. I don't need them to be able to program in them; I need them to know what they are, why they exist, some of the key facts about them, where they might most commonly be used, that sort of thing. Over-specialisation to the extent that developers are unaware of technologies outside of their direct knowledge is a warning sign about a developer's skillset, to me. How can I trust that a developer is picking the correct tool for a job if they aren't aware of what tools are available?
      - clarry 9y ago
        It's possible to be aware that certain tools exist and have an idea about what they're used for, and yet know little enough about them to butt into a discussion and give any sort of fruitful, educated opinion about them. My imaginary senior web developer knows more than a dozen languages. It is almost a given that one of these languages is technically sound and a reasonable choice for a given task, and that developer should be able to pick that language just fine. However, if there are other compelling reasons to look into other languages (for example because company wants cheap coders and think there's a large pool of cheap talent skilled in language X, or because the company needs to leverage the ecosystem surrounding language Y), that same senior developer is more than capable of doing a bit of research and evaluating these languages. You almost sound like one of these interviewers who think that a programmer who can't implement a red-black tree off the top of his head and state its worst case insertion complexity couldn't possibly be capable of looking it up and evaluating the relative merits of different data structures -- and thus cannot be trusted to any position where he might have to pick an algorithm. Nevermind if he could implement two dozen other data structures in his sleep. Over-specialization? Seriously? A programmer who's used more than a dozen programming languages is over-specialized because he can't discuss the two you want to talk about? The stench of elitism is only getting stronger here. You're assuming the worst of a programmer because his world doesn't revolve around the same things yours does, and you are assuming that despite their experience they probably will not try to or cannot educate themselves further. Unfortunately I see this sort of prejudiced attitude everywhere... "I think this is important so if you don't know this, you can't possibly be any good." Such statements reveal a rather narrow world view.