6 ms·

LOL, reminds me of the Unbreakable Umbrella Internet classic [1,2]. Not sure if I would walk around with such an umbrella, though. I used to do a lot of martial

LOL, reminds me of the Unbreakable Umbrella Internet classic [1,2]. Not sure if I would walk around with such an umbrella, though. I used to do a lot of martial arts before I realized that the general problem with self-defense is that most thugs who want to rob you have more spare time to train and tend to be better at it than you. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8G5zsQohg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8G5zsQohg [2] https://unbreakableumbrella.com/ https://unbreakableumbrella.com/

dpark 9y ago
The general problem with thugs isn't that they are well trained, but that they are typically carrying better weapons. Umbrella against a gun or even a knife is a really mismatched fight.
- Eerie 9y ago
  Against a gun, naturally. Against a knife, maybe not so mismatched. I'd not try to stab someone who is actively poking me in the face with an umbrella.
  - glangdale 9y ago
    I think this kind of theorizing about how easy it is to defend against someone with a knife is very mischievous. People are way too confident about this ("oh, I'll just defend myself with an improvised weapon or wrap my jacket around my hand"). I would rather have an umbrella than nothing but I suspect step one would be "he grabs my umbrella with his other hand" and step two would be "I get stabbed or slashed". Unless you get a brilliant shot in with the umbrella ("deadly eye poke!"), you're not going to have much effect, but any stab or slash would can start you bleeding out and/or degrade your ability to defend yourself.
    - dpark 9y ago
      Exactly. The danger of getting hit with an umbrella is mostly that it hurts. The danger of getting cut with a knife is that you bleed to death. The two are wildly mismatched. The likelihood that even a trained combatant would successfully poke out someone's eye before they got stabbed is pretty low. An untrained one will undoubtedly use the umbrella as a shitty club and get stabbed immediately.
    - YZF 9y ago
      This unbreakable umbrella looks like a formidable weapon. The story goes that the only time the famous swordsman Myamoto Musashi was fought to a draw was by Muso Gonnosuke yielding a short staff (Jo). An umbrella designed to be a weapon would presumably enough mass that trying to grab it while it's flying at you would be a pretty bad idea. While a Jo is longer you're not fighting a long sword here ;) That doesn't mean the average joe should attempt to fight a knife wielding thug with their random umbrella but I think given training and the appropriate umbrella the knife is at a disadvantage. The big advantage of a knife is that it requires relatively little training to become very effective and certainly extremely difficult to face bare handed ... but a trained staff fighter is going to have a huge advantage against an equally trained opponent with a knife.
      - glangdale 9y ago
        I was entertained by the 'unbreakable' umbrella vid, I'll admit that. Generally with a normal umbrella they seem to have a pretty high air resistance and are not remotely analogous to a staff. The thing that I carry in real life? No. A heavy enough umbrella with a metal spike in the end? Sure. Even that being said, a trained staff fighter vs. a knife is at a bigger advantage fighting, forewarned, warmed up, in loose fitting clothes, starting at a dignified distance on a unobstructed gym floor against a rubber knife with both parties wearing protective gear (i.e. "a gym fight"). I would be very surprised if most of that advantage doesn't evaporate when the psychology of fighting an actual knife comes into play, or when the knife fighter and stick fighter start at close quarters or in a cluttered space, etc. "Messy reality". The logic most people apply to this seems pretty much exactly analogous to the confident proclamations that karate and TKD dudes used to issue about being able to defend themselves again, well, anyone from a Judo player to a rugby tackle. I don't doubt that it's possible to choreograph a pretty nice fantasy sequence where the staff beats a knife, but having tried the "put on old clothes and 'fight' someone wielding a deadly magic marker" game, I'm pretty appalled at how easy it is to be messed up by a determined attacker with a magic marker. And that's without the added element of fear (and pain) that you would experience facing a real knife. I don't really have a horse in the race here - I don't carry a stick, a deadly unbreakable umbrella or a knife, nor do I plan to attack anyone with one. I'm just always a bit skeptical about the idea of 'trained staff fighters' having developed skills in realistic circumstances as opposed to, say, martial arts LARP'ing. [ all that being said, I wouldn't to be the guy that tried to go after a Dog Brother with a knife of any kind... :-) ]
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      I know exactly how I would defend myself with an umbrella against someone who has a knife, and definitely wants to stick me with it [†]. If my umbrella is already opened: throw umbrella at them, and run. If my umbrella is still closed: throw umbrella at them, and run. [†] If they're just threatening me and asking for my wallet, I give them my wallet and ask if they would also care for an umbrella.
    - Zelizz 9y ago
      I took a self-defense class where we practiced using improvised weapons against a few simulated actual weapons. Against a short knife, a sweater wrapped around the arm was not very useful (but better than nothing). I much preferred a long stick, with which we would maintain distance and strike at the hand, and a chair, which makes a handy, pointy, shield. Against a knife, I'd rather have an umbrella than a sweater, jacket, or nothing. Important to note, though: The class stressed that your best option was to have enough money on you to satisfy your attacker. A mugger who just made $100 is much less likely to beat you to death for spare change.
    - ThomasKurz 9y ago
      Why bother with a "deadly eye poke"? With a solid umbrella, like this: https://youtu.be/qxqQkdChgvg https://youtu.be/qxqQkdChgvg or this: https://youtu.be/8ypcT9IOkkM https://youtu.be/8ypcT9IOkkM one can just pound an attacker like with a steel pipe.
  - skyrw 9y ago
    This is why it's prudent to carry a handgun with you.
- ianamartin 9y ago
  Well, your response to a situation needs to evaluate the threat of the situation. No matter what your situation is, you don't want to try to go hero on it. If someone has a weapon and wants your money, you give it to them. Your goal is to try to give yourself an opportunity to run. Throw your wallet behind the attacker a little ways. They will need to turn their backs to go get it, which they will if that's what they are after. If you're in a different situation where someone is trying to herd you into a more isolated area or especially into a car, you use what you have at hand to try and fend them off enough to get a chance to run. Only bad things happen when people move you to more isolated places, and if someone is trying to force you into a car, it's worth doing whatever you can because you are probably not getting out of that car alive, in good shape, or into a better situation than the one you are currently in. In any situation other than a routine mugging, I'd use an umbrella or anything I had at hand to at least try to equalize the situation. To give me enough space to get some escape velocity. An umbrella isn't the worst idea if it's a knife. You want distance from a knife. An umbrella is quite a bit longer than a knife. If you can discourage the person long enough to get you a head start for running, then it was a good gamble. Again, by the time you've decided to engage with someone in this way, you are already pretty certain that they aren't just after some cash. They're after your life, or your ass. And that's the only time you should ever consider engaging a stranger in combat. That was the training I got from the police trainers that taught the CHL classes I took in Texas. We practiced a lot of stuff about how to disarm someone at close range, but the lesson was always this: run if you can. It's hard to shoot someone who's moving even at close range. If you get desperate, these are some last-ditch things you can try to keep yourself from being moved to an isolated place where you can (will) be raped, tortured, or murdered. But the best defense against any of that is to have some situational awareness, and to look like you have situational awareness. Make it clear to anyone who might be after you that you are watching and alert and won't be taken by surprise. Unless someone really is after you personally, most people will look for a different target. Oh, P.S. The other training we got was that if you're in trouble within earshot of people, don't yell that you're being mugged or raped. Yell that there's a fire or that someone's been hit by a car or something like that. Anything that makes sense in the context that doesn't sound like a crime in progress. People will shy away from that, whereas people will very often come to help out with something that doesn't sound dangerous to them personally. Ironically, a group of pedestrians showing up to see what's going on will often have more impact on a crime in progress than a fire or a car wreck. Though I understand this is ethically dubious, at best.

dpark 9y ago

The general problem with thugs isn't that they are well trained, but that they are typically carrying better weapons. Umbrella against a gun or even a knife is a really mismatched fight.

Eerie 9y ago
Against a gun, naturally. Against a knife, maybe not so mismatched. I'd not try to stab someone who is actively poking me in the face with an umbrella.
- glangdale 9y ago
  I think this kind of theorizing about how easy it is to defend against someone with a knife is very mischievous. People are way too confident about this ("oh, I'll just defend myself with an improvised weapon or wrap my jacket around my hand"). I would rather have an umbrella than nothing but I suspect step one would be "he grabs my umbrella with his other hand" and step two would be "I get stabbed or slashed". Unless you get a brilliant shot in with the umbrella ("deadly eye poke!"), you're not going to have much effect, but any stab or slash would can start you bleeding out and/or degrade your ability to defend yourself.
  - dpark 9y ago
    Exactly. The danger of getting hit with an umbrella is mostly that it hurts. The danger of getting cut with a knife is that you bleed to death. The two are wildly mismatched. The likelihood that even a trained combatant would successfully poke out someone's eye before they got stabbed is pretty low. An untrained one will undoubtedly use the umbrella as a shitty club and get stabbed immediately.
  - YZF 9y ago
    This unbreakable umbrella looks like a formidable weapon. The story goes that the only time the famous swordsman Myamoto Musashi was fought to a draw was by Muso Gonnosuke yielding a short staff (Jo). An umbrella designed to be a weapon would presumably enough mass that trying to grab it while it's flying at you would be a pretty bad idea. While a Jo is longer you're not fighting a long sword here ;) That doesn't mean the average joe should attempt to fight a knife wielding thug with their random umbrella but I think given training and the appropriate umbrella the knife is at a disadvantage. The big advantage of a knife is that it requires relatively little training to become very effective and certainly extremely difficult to face bare handed ... but a trained staff fighter is going to have a huge advantage against an equally trained opponent with a knife.
    - glangdale 9y ago
      I was entertained by the 'unbreakable' umbrella vid, I'll admit that. Generally with a normal umbrella they seem to have a pretty high air resistance and are not remotely analogous to a staff. The thing that I carry in real life? No. A heavy enough umbrella with a metal spike in the end? Sure. Even that being said, a trained staff fighter vs. a knife is at a bigger advantage fighting, forewarned, warmed up, in loose fitting clothes, starting at a dignified distance on a unobstructed gym floor against a rubber knife with both parties wearing protective gear (i.e. "a gym fight"). I would be very surprised if most of that advantage doesn't evaporate when the psychology of fighting an actual knife comes into play, or when the knife fighter and stick fighter start at close quarters or in a cluttered space, etc. "Messy reality". The logic most people apply to this seems pretty much exactly analogous to the confident proclamations that karate and TKD dudes used to issue about being able to defend themselves again, well, anyone from a Judo player to a rugby tackle. I don't doubt that it's possible to choreograph a pretty nice fantasy sequence where the staff beats a knife, but having tried the "put on old clothes and 'fight' someone wielding a deadly magic marker" game, I'm pretty appalled at how easy it is to be messed up by a determined attacker with a magic marker. And that's without the added element of fear (and pain) that you would experience facing a real knife. I don't really have a horse in the race here - I don't carry a stick, a deadly unbreakable umbrella or a knife, nor do I plan to attack anyone with one. I'm just always a bit skeptical about the idea of 'trained staff fighters' having developed skills in realistic circumstances as opposed to, say, martial arts LARP'ing. [ all that being said, I wouldn't to be the guy that tried to go after a Dog Brother with a knife of any kind... :-) ]
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    I know exactly how I would defend myself with an umbrella against someone who has a knife, and definitely wants to stick me with it [†]. If my umbrella is already opened: throw umbrella at them, and run. If my umbrella is still closed: throw umbrella at them, and run. [†] If they're just threatening me and asking for my wallet, I give them my wallet and ask if they would also care for an umbrella.
  - Zelizz 9y ago
    I took a self-defense class where we practiced using improvised weapons against a few simulated actual weapons. Against a short knife, a sweater wrapped around the arm was not very useful (but better than nothing). I much preferred a long stick, with which we would maintain distance and strike at the hand, and a chair, which makes a handy, pointy, shield. Against a knife, I'd rather have an umbrella than a sweater, jacket, or nothing. Important to note, though: The class stressed that your best option was to have enough money on you to satisfy your attacker. A mugger who just made $100 is much less likely to beat you to death for spare change.
  - ThomasKurz 9y ago
    Why bother with a "deadly eye poke"? With a solid umbrella, like this: https://youtu.be/qxqQkdChgvg https://youtu.be/qxqQkdChgvg or this: https://youtu.be/8ypcT9IOkkM https://youtu.be/8ypcT9IOkkM one can just pound an attacker like with a steel pipe.
- skyrw 9y ago
  This is why it's prudent to carry a handgun with you.
ianamartin 9y ago
Well, your response to a situation needs to evaluate the threat of the situation. No matter what your situation is, you don't want to try to go hero on it. If someone has a weapon and wants your money, you give it to them. Your goal is to try to give yourself an opportunity to run. Throw your wallet behind the attacker a little ways. They will need to turn their backs to go get it, which they will if that's what they are after. If you're in a different situation where someone is trying to herd you into a more isolated area or especially into a car, you use what you have at hand to try and fend them off enough to get a chance to run. Only bad things happen when people move you to more isolated places, and if someone is trying to force you into a car, it's worth doing whatever you can because you are probably not getting out of that car alive, in good shape, or into a better situation than the one you are currently in. In any situation other than a routine mugging, I'd use an umbrella or anything I had at hand to at least try to equalize the situation. To give me enough space to get some escape velocity. An umbrella isn't the worst idea if it's a knife. You want distance from a knife. An umbrella is quite a bit longer than a knife. If you can discourage the person long enough to get you a head start for running, then it was a good gamble. Again, by the time you've decided to engage with someone in this way, you are already pretty certain that they aren't just after some cash. They're after your life, or your ass. And that's the only time you should ever consider engaging a stranger in combat. That was the training I got from the police trainers that taught the CHL classes I took in Texas. We practiced a lot of stuff about how to disarm someone at close range, but the lesson was always this: run if you can. It's hard to shoot someone who's moving even at close range. If you get desperate, these are some last-ditch things you can try to keep yourself from being moved to an isolated place where you can (will) be raped, tortured, or murdered. But the best defense against any of that is to have some situational awareness, and to look like you have situational awareness. Make it clear to anyone who might be after you that you are watching and alert and won't be taken by surprise. Unless someone really is after you personally, most people will look for a different target. Oh, P.S. The other training we got was that if you're in trouble within earshot of people, don't yell that you're being mugged or raped. Yell that there's a fire or that someone's been hit by a car or something like that. Anything that makes sense in the context that doesn't sound like a crime in progress. People will shy away from that, whereas people will very often come to help out with something that doesn't sound dangerous to them personally. Ironically, a group of pedestrians showing up to see what's going on will often have more impact on a crime in progress than a fire or a car wreck. Though I understand this is ethically dubious, at best.