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There has to be supervision. I am also a member of a local hackerspace, and there is no way around the fact that people will screw things up with the tools, an

There has to be supervision. I am also a member of a local hackerspace, and there is no way around the fact that people will screw things up with the tools, and not take responsibility for the screw-up. This means, there have to be 'Members' in the workshop, at all times. That is, you can't use the space if you haven't been checked out, and are under the guidance, of another member. Then, when things screw up, the other member has the responsibility to report what happened, and you gotta fix it. (It has surprised me, over the years of observing the rise of hackerspaces, that the social engineering aspect of the ethos hasn't solve this problem. But it is very interesting to see that the phenomenon of irresponsibility is global.)

TeMPOraL 9y ago
I help run a local hackerspace and I can tell from experience, that people underestimate just how much social stuff there is in keeping a community like this together. Because a healthy hackerspace is a community first, and a workshop second. Related, I don't think I know of any hackerspace that solved the problem of keeping the workshop clean. We've been struggling with this for our entire 5 years of existence now. Nothing helps. Not asking, not pressuring, not shaming, not even cameras everywhere. People don't clean up the workplace after themselves, and the core members always end up doing that. If we had bigger budget, we'd consider hiring a cleaning contractor...
- sooheon 9y ago
  Korean culture, for all its flaws, has communal cleaning down pretty well. It's just always the youngest/junior members' responsibility. Depending on size/closeness/formality of group, the responsibility ends higher or lower up the totem pole. If the most senior member starts picking shit up, someone more junior is expected to get off their ass and finish what they started ASAP. I think it's drilled into people from the conscription military culture, where: 1. nobody signed up for this shit 2. and yet there's tons of busywork/cleaning to do 3. rather than everyone milling about shifting responsibility, have a clear expectation that the most junior guys will do all the work, and once future generations come in they, too, can relax There's even a saying, "your ass is heavy", which is a prod to juniors who stay seated as more senior people are doing busywork.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    I like it; it uses a decent Schelling point (youngest does the work), and given that time goes on and humans keep reproducing, it stays fair.
- rasz 9y ago
  cmon, hiring cleaning service did work :-)
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Didn't realize you folks did that :).
- fit2rule 9y ago
  At our local hackerspace, we use big flashing lights and an automated system that alerts everyone in the space that its cleanup time, that everyone should clean up no matter what, and that it is unacceptable for anyone to not be cleaning up for 15 minutes. This results in a huge flurry of activity and a lot of walking around looking for things to cleanup and in fact it works. The space stays relatively clean.
- sneak 9y ago
  If you have cameras you know who isn't cleaning up. Publicly ban several people for not cleaning up after themselves. Wait a few weeks. Rinse and repeat until the problem is solved or you have no more members.
- jogjayr 9y ago
  After grappling with the problem of cleaning communal spaces with multiple sets of roommates and in company breakrooms and kitchens I've come to a couple of conclusions: 1. Even in an environment with conscientious and considerate people with the best intentions, there will be a non-zero amount of "whoops I totally forgot to throw that out". People aren't perfect and they forget to do things sometimes. 2. At scale (for instance a company kitchen shared by an office of 50 people) even a 1.5% error rate will result in at least 2 "this should have been taken care of but wasn't" incidents per day (assuming each person goes to the break room 3 times/day). 3. The real error rate is likely to be higher than 1.5%. I consider myself a considerate person (eg. at work I load cups I didn't use into the dishwasher so the sink isn't full, I wipe off the countertops when I see them dirty etc.). But I'm sure even my own personal error rate is higher than 1.5% (eg. I'll bring a coffee cup and a water glass and forget one of them on a kitchen table when I go back to my desk; now that forgotten glass is someone else's responsibility to clean up). What this means is that unless most of the people who use the space take ownership of problems, regardless of who created them, you're always going to have cleanup issues. I don't know if it's possible to create that type of culture.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
    I think the type mess is also a factor, not just the rate of incidence. If you leave a cup behind once in a while, no problem, just shove it in the dishwasher. If you make a coffee and leave sugar, and milk out and bits of coffee grinds on the counter every single day that's not ok. Honestly, most adults are 5 year olds when in comes to cleanliness.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

I help run a local hackerspace and I can tell from experience, that people underestimate just how much social stuff there is in keeping a community like this together. Because a healthy hackerspace is a community first, and a workshop second. Related, I don't think I know of any hackerspace that solved the problem of keeping the workshop clean. We've been struggling with this for our entire 5 years of existence now. Nothing helps. Not asking, not pressuring, not shaming, not even cameras everywhere. People don't clean up the workplace after themselves, and the core members always end up doing that. If we had bigger budget, we'd consider hiring a cleaning contractor...

sooheon 9y ago
Korean culture, for all its flaws, has communal cleaning down pretty well. It's just always the youngest/junior members' responsibility. Depending on size/closeness/formality of group, the responsibility ends higher or lower up the totem pole. If the most senior member starts picking shit up, someone more junior is expected to get off their ass and finish what they started ASAP. I think it's drilled into people from the conscription military culture, where: 1. nobody signed up for this shit 2. and yet there's tons of busywork/cleaning to do 3. rather than everyone milling about shifting responsibility, have a clear expectation that the most junior guys will do all the work, and once future generations come in they, too, can relax There's even a saying, "your ass is heavy", which is a prod to juniors who stay seated as more senior people are doing busywork.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  I like it; it uses a decent Schelling point (youngest does the work), and given that time goes on and humans keep reproducing, it stays fair.
rasz 9y ago
cmon, hiring cleaning service did work :-)
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Didn't realize you folks did that :).
fit2rule 9y ago
At our local hackerspace, we use big flashing lights and an automated system that alerts everyone in the space that its cleanup time, that everyone should clean up no matter what, and that it is unacceptable for anyone to not be cleaning up for 15 minutes. This results in a huge flurry of activity and a lot of walking around looking for things to cleanup and in fact it works. The space stays relatively clean.
sneak 9y ago
If you have cameras you know who isn't cleaning up. Publicly ban several people for not cleaning up after themselves. Wait a few weeks. Rinse and repeat until the problem is solved or you have no more members.
jogjayr 9y ago
After grappling with the problem of cleaning communal spaces with multiple sets of roommates and in company breakrooms and kitchens I've come to a couple of conclusions: 1. Even in an environment with conscientious and considerate people with the best intentions, there will be a non-zero amount of "whoops I totally forgot to throw that out". People aren't perfect and they forget to do things sometimes. 2. At scale (for instance a company kitchen shared by an office of 50 people) even a 1.5% error rate will result in at least 2 "this should have been taken care of but wasn't" incidents per day (assuming each person goes to the break room 3 times/day). 3. The real error rate is likely to be higher than 1.5%. I consider myself a considerate person (eg. at work I load cups I didn't use into the dishwasher so the sink isn't full, I wipe off the countertops when I see them dirty etc.). But I'm sure even my own personal error rate is higher than 1.5% (eg. I'll bring a coffee cup and a water glass and forget one of them on a kitchen table when I go back to my desk; now that forgotten glass is someone else's responsibility to clean up). What this means is that unless most of the people who use the space take ownership of problems, regardless of who created them, you're always going to have cleanup issues. I don't know if it's possible to create that type of culture.
- 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
  I think the type mess is also a factor, not just the rate of incidence. If you leave a cup behind once in a while, no problem, just shove it in the dishwasher. If you make a coffee and leave sugar, and milk out and bits of coffee grinds on the counter every single day that's not ok. Honestly, most adults are 5 year olds when in comes to cleanliness.