7 ms·

It also used to cost proportionally more of your disposable income; You'd probably be more inclined to borrow an item if it would cost the next month's cash to

It also used to cost proportionally more of your disposable income; You'd probably be more inclined to borrow an item if it would cost the next month's cash to acquire.

jgalt212 9y ago
indeed, outside of luxury items, things have become very cheap. real estate, health care, and education have become very expensive. As an aside, one can pin the persistence of ZIRP on the Fed measuring the wrong things. https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-disease-explained https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-...
- kbutler 9y ago
  I found this graph in that article particularly interesting: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jizjAuIFp6g2ADWJCZv3tfj34cA=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8465151/pricesgoodindex2.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jizjAuIFp6g2ADWJCZv3tfj34cA=... The alternative explanation for those items is that items whose price is subsidized and/or not fully disclosed to the consumer tend to rise. The graph shows everything dropping in price except: - shelter (slight rise - real estate is tax advantaged and routinely debt-financed over decades) - medical care (significant rise, and insurance and tax shelter of insurance and government programs hide the full cost) - college (very heavily subsidized, by government, schools, and parents) The other items the article mentions (summer camps, veterinary care, and broadway shows) are all luxury goods. At least if you're not a farmer/rancher for a living. Yes, the thesis that services become relatively more expensive is interesting, but the effect of subsidies and hidden prices is well understood already.
sotojuan 9y ago
I still wouldn't buy a drill today, but I'd consider renting one from Home Depot before asking neighbors (mostly because the idea of asking neighbors wouldn't cross my mind, to prove GP's point).
- grogenaut 9y ago
  A drill/electric screwdriver is probably the most useful power tool today for a home owner. If you don't own one you likely wouldn't own any power tools. And at a car ride and $20 a day rental it doesn't take long to justify the on sale price. Are you space constrained or do you just not do simple maintenance yourself or is there some other reason my engineer brain isn't grokking. Eg I wouldn't even work on a light switch without a power drill because I don't want to make the literal 200 revolution over 5 minutes per screw to check if it's out. Also it's harder to shock yourself. And to be fair I own not just a drill but woodworking tools and metal working tools (lathe mill) and a 3d printer and cover a laser cutter and a welder that does aluminum. So maybe I'm biased.
  - jeffwass 9y ago
    "Eg I wouldn't even work on a light switch without a power drill because I don't want to make the literal 200 revolution over 5 minutes per screw" 200 revolutions, 5 minutes? What kind of screws are in your light switch? I've never seen one that took a sizeable number revolutions. A quick check suggests 6-32 threading is standard. That means 32 threads-per-inch, so your 200 revolutions means your light switch screws are six inches long??
    - jedberg 9y ago
      Or he has 12 1/2" screws. :)
      - jeffwass 9y ago
        Poster explicitly mentioned per screw
        grogenaut 9y ago
        Poster was mildly exaggerating. Poster also prefers to get all the honey do sh*t done in one go instead of stopping because hand is tired. Honey do things encounter enough issues and trips to home depot that I'm not keen on adding 2 more (to pick up the drill and drop it off).
ajross 9y ago
This is exactly it. The drill in question is the kind of thing you find on special at Home Depot for $30. Likewise for (just riffing on the stuff I see in the photos in the linked article) the therma-rests and tents for camping, or the collection of board games[1], etc... Basically, the causality in the grandparent's analysis is wrong. We aren't refusing to borrow stuff from our neighbors because we're unable due to some modern affliction, we don't bother because someone gave us that drill for father's day last year. The junk is the cause, not the effect. [1] Which is hardly a new phenomenon. The home I grew up in 40 years ago was drowning in these things too.
- tootie 9y ago
  Home Depot also does rentals of more expensive items.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    Does the US have tool renting places for contractors? The ones here have all sorts of tools, including massive stuff (e.g. Excavators, trench cutting equipment, graders). They aren't particularly cheap to use, but they have what is needed. Excessively dirty or broken tools get refunded too.
    - allannienhuis 9y ago
      Yes, both the US and Canada have tool/equipment rental places that are used by both contractors and homeowners for this sort of thing. They're usually focused on the bigger ticket items, but often have smaller speciality items too. The thing that interests me about the maker spaces is that they provide a _place_ for this activity where the equipment is already set up, and a community of people that are interested in sharing their skills. You don't really find that at the commercial tool rental places.
      - lostlogin 9y ago
        Certain tools do get me thinking of the neighbours - angle grinder and welder for sure.
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
Is this actually true? Is there anyone here who was an adult in the 60s / 70s who can attest to this? Even then it would be anecdotal. If we've got data let's go with the data. If all we've got is opinions let's go with mine. I'd probably not be inclined to borrow a thing if it cost next month's cash to replace it when I break it. I would be more inclined to hire a thing from a company who hires things. That way, if it breaks, no one is put out.
- osrec 9y ago
  Agree, the more expensive something is, the less inclined I am to borrow it.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    Or lend it out, for that matter. But even a $10 tool I won't led out. No, you're not borrowing my 15mm spanner because I'll never get it back. That could be less of a problem when you're borrowing it from an actual service like the one in the article. Yeah, that's basically it: I won't borrow or lend out from individuals, but when there's a contract in place (supported by a membership fee in this case) that defines the limits of liability and cost of replacement then it's not borrowing anyway. It is, as someone else mentioned, hiring.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  I remember my parents lending their caravan to friends in the seventies, they would lend and borrow tools as well. The reason I remember is they were constantly complaining about the state things were returned in, breakages were frequent.
- eloisant 9y ago
  In my neighborhood in France we keep lending/borrowing each other stuff all the time. It probably helps that most of the resident are eldery people who accumulated a bunch of useful stuff.
- grogenaut 9y ago
  I have a random alternate data point. There are a ton of craftsman metal lathes out there from the 20s to 60s. I think more people had way more workshop capabilities. But anecdotally I notice that people prefer to either do metal stuff or wood stuff. They take the same type of tools but don't really cross over (wood lathe really doesn't work on metal and vice versa). Enough so that most people can't afford both, in terms of space or money. Also hot metal chips cause sawdust to go up in flames, sawdust gets all up in your metal cutting oils and coolant, so you have to keep a cleaner shop than usual. As for renting stuff, rental gear is usually beat to shit by people who a) don't know what they're doing, b) are too cheap to pay for the real tool, so they'll use a small sander (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006EKFZQ4/ref=asc_df_B006EKFZQ45036275/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B006EKFZQ4&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167129443640&hvpos=1o9&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6325627301628104909&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033294&hvtargid=pla-272778524386 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006EKFZQ4/ref=asc_df_B006EKFZQ450...) rental to resurface their floor when they need a full size one to really do a house (https://www.amazon.com/Clarke-Drum-Sander-Ez-8-Expandable/dp/B000RO7R2I/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1497814348&sr=1-1&keywords=hardwood+floor+sander https://www.amazon.com/Clarke-Drum-Sander-Ez-8-Expandable/dp...) [had a friend do this, but he just under rented and went right back an hour later], or use a drill as a saw, c) or just don't give a shit about the equipment and beat the crap out of it anyway... eg moral hazard. I've rented tools where it looked like it was fine and immediately broke (person glued the pull starter onto the engine when string broke). I then had to spend an hour discussing with the rental place if I broke it. Another time they forgot a part and tried to charge me for it then 20 minutes later found it on the floor. They're generally a good store but it's a shitty market.

It also used to cost proportionally more of your disposable income; You'd probably be more inclined to borrow an item if it would cost the next month's cash to acquire.

jgalt212 9y ago

indeed, outside of luxury items, things have become very cheap. real estate, health care, and education have become very expensive. As an aside, one can pin the persistence of ZIRP on the Fed measuring the wrong things. https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-disease-explained https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-...

kbutler 9y ago
I found this graph in that article particularly interesting: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jizjAuIFp6g2ADWJCZv3tfj34cA=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8465151/pricesgoodindex2.jpg https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jizjAuIFp6g2ADWJCZv3tfj34cA=... The alternative explanation for those items is that items whose price is subsidized and/or not fully disclosed to the consumer tend to rise. The graph shows everything dropping in price except: - shelter (slight rise - real estate is tax advantaged and routinely debt-financed over decades) - medical care (significant rise, and insurance and tax shelter of insurance and government programs hide the full cost) - college (very heavily subsidized, by government, schools, and parents) The other items the article mentions (summer camps, veterinary care, and broadway shows) are all luxury goods. At least if you're not a farmer/rancher for a living. Yes, the thesis that services become relatively more expensive is interesting, but the effect of subsidies and hidden prices is well understood already.

sotojuan 9y ago

I still wouldn't buy a drill today, but I'd consider renting one from Home Depot before asking neighbors (mostly because the idea of asking neighbors wouldn't cross my mind, to prove GP's point).

grogenaut 9y ago
A drill/electric screwdriver is probably the most useful power tool today for a home owner. If you don't own one you likely wouldn't own any power tools. And at a car ride and $20 a day rental it doesn't take long to justify the on sale price. Are you space constrained or do you just not do simple maintenance yourself or is there some other reason my engineer brain isn't grokking. Eg I wouldn't even work on a light switch without a power drill because I don't want to make the literal 200 revolution over 5 minutes per screw to check if it's out. Also it's harder to shock yourself. And to be fair I own not just a drill but woodworking tools and metal working tools (lathe mill) and a 3d printer and cover a laser cutter and a welder that does aluminum. So maybe I'm biased.
- jeffwass 9y ago
  "Eg I wouldn't even work on a light switch without a power drill because I don't want to make the literal 200 revolution over 5 minutes per screw" 200 revolutions, 5 minutes? What kind of screws are in your light switch? I've never seen one that took a sizeable number revolutions. A quick check suggests 6-32 threading is standard. That means 32 threads-per-inch, so your 200 revolutions means your light switch screws are six inches long??
  - jedberg 9y ago
    Or he has 12 1/2" screws. :)
    - jeffwass 9y ago
      Poster explicitly mentioned per screw
      - grogenaut 9y ago
        Poster was mildly exaggerating. Poster also prefers to get all the honey do sh*t done in one go instead of stopping because hand is tired. Honey do things encounter enough issues and trips to home depot that I'm not keen on adding 2 more (to pick up the drill and drop it off).

ajross 9y ago

This is exactly it. The drill in question is the kind of thing you find on special at Home Depot for $30. Likewise for (just riffing on the stuff I see in the photos in the linked article) the therma-rests and tents for camping, or the collection of board games[1], etc... Basically, the causality in the grandparent's analysis is wrong. We aren't refusing to borrow stuff from our neighbors because we're unable due to some modern affliction, we don't bother because someone gave us that drill for father's day last year. The junk is the cause, not the effect. [1] Which is hardly a new phenomenon. The home I grew up in 40 years ago was drowning in these things too.

tootie 9y ago
Home Depot also does rentals of more expensive items.
- lostlogin 9y ago
  Does the US have tool renting places for contractors? The ones here have all sorts of tools, including massive stuff (e.g. Excavators, trench cutting equipment, graders). They aren't particularly cheap to use, but they have what is needed. Excessively dirty or broken tools get refunded too.
  - allannienhuis 9y ago
    Yes, both the US and Canada have tool/equipment rental places that are used by both contractors and homeowners for this sort of thing. They're usually focused on the bigger ticket items, but often have smaller speciality items too. The thing that interests me about the maker spaces is that they provide a _place_ for this activity where the equipment is already set up, and a community of people that are interested in sharing their skills. You don't really find that at the commercial tool rental places.
    - lostlogin 9y ago
      Certain tools do get me thinking of the neighbours - angle grinder and welder for sure.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago

Is this actually true? Is there anyone here who was an adult in the 60s / 70s who can attest to this? Even then it would be anecdotal. If we've got data let's go with the data. If all we've got is opinions let's go with mine. I'd probably not be inclined to borrow a thing if it cost next month's cash to replace it when I break it. I would be more inclined to hire a thing from a company who hires things. That way, if it breaks, no one is put out.

osrec 9y ago
Agree, the more expensive something is, the less inclined I am to borrow it.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  Or lend it out, for that matter. But even a $10 tool I won't led out. No, you're not borrowing my 15mm spanner because I'll never get it back. That could be less of a problem when you're borrowing it from an actual service like the one in the article. Yeah, that's basically it: I won't borrow or lend out from individuals, but when there's a contract in place (supported by a membership fee in this case) that defines the limits of liability and cost of replacement then it's not borrowing anyway. It is, as someone else mentioned, hiring.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
I remember my parents lending their caravan to friends in the seventies, they would lend and borrow tools as well. The reason I remember is they were constantly complaining about the state things were returned in, breakages were frequent.
eloisant 9y ago
In my neighborhood in France we keep lending/borrowing each other stuff all the time. It probably helps that most of the resident are eldery people who accumulated a bunch of useful stuff.
grogenaut 9y ago
I have a random alternate data point. There are a ton of craftsman metal lathes out there from the 20s to 60s. I think more people had way more workshop capabilities. But anecdotally I notice that people prefer to either do metal stuff or wood stuff. They take the same type of tools but don't really cross over (wood lathe really doesn't work on metal and vice versa). Enough so that most people can't afford both, in terms of space or money. Also hot metal chips cause sawdust to go up in flames, sawdust gets all up in your metal cutting oils and coolant, so you have to keep a cleaner shop than usual. As for renting stuff, rental gear is usually beat to shit by people who a) don't know what they're doing, b) are too cheap to pay for the real tool, so they'll use a small sander (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006EKFZQ4/ref=asc_df_B006EKFZQ45036275/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B006EKFZQ4&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167129443640&hvpos=1o9&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6325627301628104909&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033294&hvtargid=pla-272778524386 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006EKFZQ4/ref=asc_df_B006EKFZQ450...) rental to resurface their floor when they need a full size one to really do a house (https://www.amazon.com/Clarke-Drum-Sander-Ez-8-Expandable/dp/B000RO7R2I/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1497814348&sr=1-1&keywords=hardwood+floor+sander https://www.amazon.com/Clarke-Drum-Sander-Ez-8-Expandable/dp...) [had a friend do this, but he just under rented and went right back an hour later], or use a drill as a saw, c) or just don't give a shit about the equipment and beat the crap out of it anyway... eg moral hazard. I've rented tools where it looked like it was fine and immediately broke (person glued the pull starter onto the engine when string broke). I then had to spend an hour discussing with the rental place if I broke it. Another time they forgot a part and tried to charge me for it then 20 minutes later found it on the floor. They're generally a good store but it's a shitty market.