6 ms·

isn't it a bit disingenuous to say it was just the position of Ethereum founders? People wanted their money back. It's almost as if some recourse for actions d

by rtpg 9y ago

isn't it a bit disingenuous to say it was just the position of Ethereum founders? People wanted their money back. It's almost as if some recourse for actions done in bad faith is a useful tool to have as a society...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
Of course, people also want to take back losing moves in chess. The whole point of Ethereum was that the code alone specified the contract.
- bluejekyll 9y ago
  But code is written by humans... have you ever seen code with no bugs? In 20 years of professional development I have not. Given that humans are imperfect, and could even potentially act in bad faith, isn't it reasonable to have an exception clause? I get the argument to not have one; that it's impossible to have favorites and central figures manipulate the system, but nothing is perfect.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    https://github.com/seL4/seL4 https://github.com/seL4/seL4 https://www.mitls.org/ https://www.mitls.org/
    - bluejekyll 9y ago
      sel4 is amazing, but it is not bug free: https://github.com/seL4/seL4/issues/36 https://github.com/seL4/seL4/issues/36 It might be close... for miTLS I don't have access to the issues, but let's assume it's bug free now for sake of argument; it hasn't always been bug free, that is in earlier unproven releases. "Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence!" - Edsger Dijkstra
      - microcolonel 9y ago
        Minor nitpick: the x86 port was never verified, the 32-bit ARM one was.
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    > isn't it reasonable to have an exception clause It absolutely is. Which is why you don't say "code is law". Which is why Ethereum is dumb.
    - nebabyte 9y ago
      If you think laws are written without exception clauses, I have a bridge to sell ya.
      - kalleboo 9y ago
        Laws are interpreted by courts. There is no court of Ethereum aside from "can I convince the developers + 50% of miners to do a hard fork"
        jjeaff 9y ago
        I have a solution. Perhaps you take the etherium users, and they can vote and elect arbitrators, let's call them judges. Then those judges can hold "court" and a selection of etherium users would act as a "jury" to decide on how to handle exceptions. Of course, we will also need to appoint people to enforce those laws. Maybe we should start with a constitution to get things all lined out...
        bluejekyll 9y ago
        Actually I would suggest starting with something less strong than a "constitution", something that just defines the federation of etherium exchanges in broad strokes, call that the "federalist papers" or something.
  - WalterSear 9y ago
    Not while claiming the opposite, it's not.
gus_massa 9y ago
That's not what says https://www.ethereum.org/ https://www.ethereum.org/ > Ethereum is a decentralized platform that runs smart contracts: applications that run exactly as programmed without any possibility of downtime, censorship, fraud or third party interference.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  Among those of us who see some value in smart contracts, there are two camps: those who are realistic about their limits and challenges, and those who have bought in to a massive delusion. This quote epitomizes the latter. For example, how does 'run exactly as programmed' rule out fraud? Fraud is as programmable as legitimate activity. For example, if fraud is not possible, then what was the justification for the hard fork? People who have bought into a delusion find it hard to evaluate evidence - for example "Van de Sande is eager to move on. “It was really just a blip,” he says." So what was all the fuss about? After all, it was just two lines of code, so simple in retrospect, and now it has been fixed, so there's nothing to worry about, right? Perhaps my favorite quote is "“I’m absolutely amazed. Why has no one traced this back and found out who did it?” asks Stephan Tual, the third co-founder of Slock.it." He is amazed that in one respect, this digital currency lived up to one of their major claimed benefits? I am also not at all surprised by the 'shoot the messenger' complaints about Sirer's involvement. The reality is that the verification of software, especially at this scale, is a really difficult problem, and everyone who has bought into the delusion seems to think that someone else is going to do it for them - I doubt that even 1% know how to do it themselves. So much for 'trustless'.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  applications that run exactly as programmed without any possibility of downtime, censorship, fraud or third party interference "Without any possibility" - You'd think that'd raise a few red flags. The probability that Ethereum will be subject to downtime, censorship, fraud, and third party interference is 1. How can they have that on their landing page and keep a straight face?
flunhat 9y ago
Then what exactly is the difference between Ethereum's smart contracts and our legal system's contracts? At least in the latter, we can elect (or elect the people who choose) those who make final decisions.
WalterSear 9y ago
It is. It's not useful to have in an electronic currency. In fact, it goes against the whole idea behind ethereum. >Ethereum is a decentralized platform that runs smart contracts: applications that run exactly as programmed without any possibility of downtime, censorship, fraud or third party interference.

by rtpg 9y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago

Of course, people also want to take back losing moves in chess. The whole point of Ethereum was that the code alone specified the contract.

bluejekyll 9y ago
But code is written by humans... have you ever seen code with no bugs? In 20 years of professional development I have not. Given that humans are imperfect, and could even potentially act in bad faith, isn't it reasonable to have an exception clause? I get the argument to not have one; that it's impossible to have favorites and central figures manipulate the system, but nothing is perfect.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  https://github.com/seL4/seL4 https://github.com/seL4/seL4 https://www.mitls.org/ https://www.mitls.org/
  - bluejekyll 9y ago
    sel4 is amazing, but it is not bug free: https://github.com/seL4/seL4/issues/36 https://github.com/seL4/seL4/issues/36 It might be close... for miTLS I don't have access to the issues, but let's assume it's bug free now for sake of argument; it hasn't always been bug free, that is in earlier unproven releases. "Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence!" - Edsger Dijkstra
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      Minor nitpick: the x86 port was never verified, the 32-bit ARM one was.
- kalleboo 9y ago
  > isn't it reasonable to have an exception clause It absolutely is. Which is why you don't say "code is law". Which is why Ethereum is dumb.
  - nebabyte 9y ago
    If you think laws are written without exception clauses, I have a bridge to sell ya.
    - kalleboo 9y ago
      Laws are interpreted by courts. There is no court of Ethereum aside from "can I convince the developers + 50% of miners to do a hard fork"
      - jjeaff 9y ago
        I have a solution. Perhaps you take the etherium users, and they can vote and elect arbitrators, let's call them judges. Then those judges can hold "court" and a selection of etherium users would act as a "jury" to decide on how to handle exceptions. Of course, we will also need to appoint people to enforce those laws. Maybe we should start with a constitution to get things all lined out...
        bluejekyll 9y ago
        Actually I would suggest starting with something less strong than a "constitution", something that just defines the federation of etherium exchanges in broad strokes, call that the "federalist papers" or something.
- WalterSear 9y ago
  Not while claiming the opposite, it's not.

gus_massa 9y ago

That's not what says https://www.ethereum.org/ https://www.ethereum.org/ > Ethereum is a decentralized platform that runs smart contracts: applications that run exactly as programmed without any possibility of downtime, censorship, fraud or third party interference.

mannykannot 9y ago
Among those of us who see some value in smart contracts, there are two camps: those who are realistic about their limits and challenges, and those who have bought in to a massive delusion. This quote epitomizes the latter. For example, how does 'run exactly as programmed' rule out fraud? Fraud is as programmable as legitimate activity. For example, if fraud is not possible, then what was the justification for the hard fork? People who have bought into a delusion find it hard to evaluate evidence - for example "Van de Sande is eager to move on. “It was really just a blip,” he says." So what was all the fuss about? After all, it was just two lines of code, so simple in retrospect, and now it has been fixed, so there's nothing to worry about, right? Perhaps my favorite quote is "“I’m absolutely amazed. Why has no one traced this back and found out who did it?” asks Stephan Tual, the third co-founder of Slock.it." He is amazed that in one respect, this digital currency lived up to one of their major claimed benefits? I am also not at all surprised by the 'shoot the messenger' complaints about Sirer's involvement. The reality is that the verification of software, especially at this scale, is a really difficult problem, and everyone who has bought into the delusion seems to think that someone else is going to do it for them - I doubt that even 1% know how to do it themselves. So much for 'trustless'.
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
applications that run exactly as programmed without any possibility of downtime, censorship, fraud or third party interference "Without any possibility" - You'd think that'd raise a few red flags. The probability that Ethereum will be subject to downtime, censorship, fraud, and third party interference is 1. How can they have that on their landing page and keep a straight face?

flunhat 9y ago

Then what exactly is the difference between Ethereum's smart contracts and our legal system's contracts? At least in the latter, we can elect (or elect the people who choose) those who make final decisions.

WalterSear 9y ago

It is. It's not useful to have in an electronic currency. In fact, it goes against the whole idea behind ethereum. >Ethereum is a decentralized platform that runs smart contracts: applications that run exactly as programmed without any possibility of downtime, censorship, fraud or third party interference.