4 ms·

This is the beginning of burnout. Soon, you'll stop being able to think straight even into Monday. Other things in your life will fall to the wayside or disapp

This is the beginning of burnout. Soon, you'll stop being able to think straight even into Monday. Other things in your life will fall to the wayside or disappear out of neglect. Monday will turn into Tuesday, Tuesday into Wednesday. You'll wonder why you even bother to show up. Eventually, your employer will fire you for someone younger and cheaper, and you'll realize that you have no ability to maintain enough software development effort on your own to demonstrate to potential employers that you can do the work. And even if you could, it's a sham, because you can't. You'll find that you end up being able to work ten, maybe twenty hours a week if you're having an especially good week. Your work won't be any worse, for quality, you just simply won't be able to force yourself to do it any more than that. So, it's worth addressing that early. I'm not sure why the mantra of HN is that "You just have weekend and side projects and stay up till 3 am while still making that 9am meeting and everything is great". Sure, that works for a while, until you hit your limits and your life falls apart. There's no road back from there. Take it from me, you can truly excel, and nobody cares unless you can work 40, 50, or 60 hours a week. To PG's point from a while ago, "Nobody is willing to pay double for twice the work" - neither is anyone willing to pay half the rate for half the work.

sqldba 9y ago
I'm not sure what solution you're suggesting. Can you please rephrase?
- jaggederest 9y ago
  I am suggesting that, if the environment you work in leaves you with no energy at the end of the day, you need to either change it or leave. (Not that you should use that free energy for programming. Use it to build your life, not software.)
watwut 9y ago
Parent is not working 60 hours a week. He is working 40, but he does not slack around, so he is tired after that.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Sure, everyone has bad days. What happens if you're working to your utmost, absolutely everything you've got has to go into the job, and you hit a rough patch? A cold, a breakup, God forbid a death in the family. You have to build that into your routine. You're not going to be a superhero every day, so you need to spend some of your time managing for that, setting things up in such a way that when you have a bad day, you can compensate for it, rather than falling apart. If you're putting out more than 90% of your 'best day' effort every day, you're sitting in a very precarious place. You need to be proactive about resting and rehabilitating yourself.
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    > I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Indeed. Being physically exhausted can be healthy in most cases but mentally exhausted is completely different. You don't recover from it with a good sleep.
    - watwut 9y ago
      If you are too exhausted, whether physically or mentally, then it is bad. However, if you come home full of energy and work four more hours, then you likely slacked at work - regardless of how much time you spent there.
Grustaf 9y ago
It's probably true that not everyone can pull it off, but many evidently can. You don't need to excel at your day job, you just need to work hard enough to hang on while exploring your side project. Speaking of, I don't think I've met a programmer without some kind of side project, so it's just a matter of how much effort you can put into it, and how good the idea is. If you have a family this will depend on how understanding your wife is, but I think it's safe to assume that anyone can but in an hour a day at least. Americans watch some 3 hours of TV a day, so time is not lacking.
madengr 9y ago
Shit, that sounds like me. The weekends have turned into recovery from the workweek. I love electronics design, but my employer has ground me down over 20 years. I'd quit now at 45, but have 2 kids elementary school age with looming college expenses and a few years left on the mortgage. I'd like to quit and do it just for fun again.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  I'd be happy to talk if you want. I don't have a bunch of help to offer you, it's what I've been living the last little while. My email is in my profile if you'd prefer to discuss privately - I have no shame so... here's my thoughts. Take it from me though quitting doesn't solve the problem. It just means you're unemployed and burnt out! I've been in therapy for quite a while now and really not seeing much in the way of significant progress, but things are getting better in an incremental way.
- stefek99 9y ago
  Is college really required? === It takes too long. It's too expensive. In the UK and US it's s a costly activity - students tend to take loans so when they leave university they are in debt. Hurray! You got a degree, now you have to work to pay off your loan... I have nothing against education and learning. You should always learn. If you really think that going to university is something you really have to do: * Take a gap year first * Be sure what you want to study * Don't pay for it: scholarships, or maybe a different country with free education? (you may need to learn the language first) I made several mistakes in my approach to university. Probably the biggest one was sense of entitlement - because I graduated from the top degree in the top high school - I thought I'll get new jobs easily. > Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work. University could be good in terms of making friends, expanding your network but... I bet you can make friends anyway. ===

sqldba 9y ago

I'm not sure what solution you're suggesting. Can you please rephrase?

jaggederest 9y ago
I am suggesting that, if the environment you work in leaves you with no energy at the end of the day, you need to either change it or leave. (Not that you should use that free energy for programming. Use it to build your life, not software.)

watwut 9y ago

Parent is not working 60 hours a week. He is working 40, but he does not slack around, so he is tired after that.

jaggederest 9y ago
I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Sure, everyone has bad days. What happens if you're working to your utmost, absolutely everything you've got has to go into the job, and you hit a rough patch? A cold, a breakup, God forbid a death in the family. You have to build that into your routine. You're not going to be a superhero every day, so you need to spend some of your time managing for that, setting things up in such a way that when you have a bad day, you can compensate for it, rather than falling apart. If you're putting out more than 90% of your 'best day' effort every day, you're sitting in a very precarious place. You need to be proactive about resting and rehabilitating yourself.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  > I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Indeed. Being physically exhausted can be healthy in most cases but mentally exhausted is completely different. You don't recover from it with a good sleep.
  - watwut 9y ago
    If you are too exhausted, whether physically or mentally, then it is bad. However, if you come home full of energy and work four more hours, then you likely slacked at work - regardless of how much time you spent there.

Grustaf 9y ago

It's probably true that not everyone can pull it off, but many evidently can. You don't need to excel at your day job, you just need to work hard enough to hang on while exploring your side project. Speaking of, I don't think I've met a programmer without some kind of side project, so it's just a matter of how much effort you can put into it, and how good the idea is. If you have a family this will depend on how understanding your wife is, but I think it's safe to assume that anyone can but in an hour a day at least. Americans watch some 3 hours of TV a day, so time is not lacking.

madengr 9y ago

Shit, that sounds like me. The weekends have turned into recovery from the workweek. I love electronics design, but my employer has ground me down over 20 years. I'd quit now at 45, but have 2 kids elementary school age with looming college expenses and a few years left on the mortgage. I'd like to quit and do it just for fun again.

jaggederest 9y ago
I'd be happy to talk if you want. I don't have a bunch of help to offer you, it's what I've been living the last little while. My email is in my profile if you'd prefer to discuss privately - I have no shame so... here's my thoughts. Take it from me though quitting doesn't solve the problem. It just means you're unemployed and burnt out! I've been in therapy for quite a while now and really not seeing much in the way of significant progress, but things are getting better in an incremental way.
stefek99 9y ago
Is college really required? === It takes too long. It's too expensive. In the UK and US it's s a costly activity - students tend to take loans so when they leave university they are in debt. Hurray! You got a degree, now you have to work to pay off your loan... I have nothing against education and learning. You should always learn. If you really think that going to university is something you really have to do: * Take a gap year first * Be sure what you want to study * Don't pay for it: scholarships, or maybe a different country with free education? (you may need to learn the language first) I made several mistakes in my approach to university. Probably the biggest one was sense of entitlement - because I graduated from the top degree in the top high school - I thought I'll get new jobs easily. > Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work. University could be good in terms of making friends, expanding your network but... I bet you can make friends anyway. ===