4 ms·

The author is from the Netherlands. Is the bureaucracy really that much worse in Germany than it is there?

by uiri 9y ago

sverhagen 9y ago
In my experience the real bureaucracy has no direct relationship to the bureaucracy expressed/perceived by individuals. This seems true both for statements about your local level of bureaucracy and that of other areas.
captainmuon 9y ago
I'm seeing a bit of the employer side burocracy: Currently, I have a weird job. I work in Germany, but am payed from abroad. My employer would have to pay German social insurances, but can't/won't deal with that. So they give me the cash and I hand it to the insurances, and do the paperwork. It was quite a steep learning curve: registering a company with the health insurance agency, calculating the different contributions (health, unemployment, care, pension, ...), and making monthly reports. Was it hard? Hell yes, it was horrible. But that's just because I hate paperwork. Everything has its internal logic, it's entirely learnable in a few afternoons. Most importantly, the burocracy was incredibly patient with me, even though I screwed up a few times. I overpaid, and realised months later, but they will still pay me back. The thing is, they want you to fill out everything correctly, they have no interest in you failing or do so, so you get support. And many many people have gone through that same process before. Also, I think in an actual business, I'd just pay somebody to deal with these things.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Oh, man, the envy. In Portugal, I just paid a 200€ fine for failing to pay 20€ in taxes - which I didn't owe, I just marked the wrong box on the form.
  - captainmuon 9y ago
    They are surprizingly chill here :-) If you don't file taxes (as a regular employee), you will get increasingly sternly worded requests to do so... and after a few months they say "ok whatever", and just estimate your taxes conservatively. Of course that would be stupid for you, because you'd leave money (deductions) on the table. It is actually hard to accidentially evade taxes. If you make an honest mistake, and come clean, you are not likely to be fined. Maybe it helps that we pay everything (tax, insurance) in advance, and largely automatically (as salaried employees).
jaclaz 9y ago
... and he is talking (judging from the brand new PC-XT he got) circa 1984. So the comparison should be more between 1984 bureaucracy and 2017 one. Cannot say what happened in these 30+ years in Germany or the Netherlands, but I can tell you that here (Italy) the number (and frequence) of bureaucratic obligations (and number of Laws that you have to be compliant with) has almost tripled in many sectors (maybe not if you are putting together a software - or similar "immaterial" - company). Things are getting (slowly and only slightly) better lately because of some changes in the way things can be done remotely (via Internet, etc.) but seemingly a lot of public offices managed (since all in all doing this kind of stuff with modern technologies is easier) to multiply the requirements, nullifying the progresses in terms of saving time (and costs).

The author is from the Netherlands. Is the bureaucracy really that much worse in Germany than it is there?

by uiri 9y ago

The author is from the Netherlands. Is the bureaucracy really that much worse in Germany than it is there?

In my experience the real bureaucracy has no direct relationship to the bureaucracy expressed/perceived by individuals. This seems true both for statements about your local level of bureaucracy and that of other areas.

captainmuon 9y ago

I'm seeing a bit of the employer side burocracy: Currently, I have a weird job. I work in Germany, but am payed from abroad. My employer would have to pay German social insurances, but can't/won't deal with that. So they give me the cash and I hand it to the insurances, and do the paperwork. It was quite a steep learning curve: registering a company with the health insurance agency, calculating the different contributions (health, unemployment, care, pension, ...), and making monthly reports. Was it hard? Hell yes, it was horrible. But that's just because I hate paperwork. Everything has its internal logic, it's entirely learnable in a few afternoons. Most importantly, the burocracy was incredibly patient with me, even though I screwed up a few times. I overpaid, and realised months later, but they will still pay me back. The thing is, they want you to fill out everything correctly, they have no interest in you failing or do so, so you get support. And many many people have gone through that same process before. Also, I think in an actual business, I'd just pay somebody to deal with these things.

icebraining 9y ago
Oh, man, the envy. In Portugal, I just paid a 200€ fine for failing to pay 20€ in taxes - which I didn't owe, I just marked the wrong box on the form.
- captainmuon 9y ago
  They are surprizingly chill here :-) If you don't file taxes (as a regular employee), you will get increasingly sternly worded requests to do so... and after a few months they say "ok whatever", and just estimate your taxes conservatively. Of course that would be stupid for you, because you'd leave money (deductions) on the table. It is actually hard to accidentially evade taxes. If you make an honest mistake, and come clean, you are not likely to be fined. Maybe it helps that we pay everything (tax, insurance) in advance, and largely automatically (as salaried employees).

jaclaz 9y ago

... and he is talking (judging from the brand new PC-XT he got) circa 1984. So the comparison should be more between 1984 bureaucracy and 2017 one. Cannot say what happened in these 30+ years in Germany or the Netherlands, but I can tell you that here (Italy) the number (and frequence) of bureaucratic obligations (and number of Laws that you have to be compliant with) has almost tripled in many sectors (maybe not if you are putting together a software - or similar "immaterial" - company). Things are getting (slowly and only slightly) better lately because of some changes in the way things can be done remotely (via Internet, etc.) but seemingly a lot of public offices managed (since all in all doing this kind of stuff with modern technologies is easier) to multiply the requirements, nullifying the progresses in terms of saving time (and costs).