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Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? I can't imagine it ever being enough to support the ecosystem. Edit: And how is the locall

Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? I can't imagine it ever being enough to support the ecosystem. Edit: And how is the locally gathered "attention" monitoring not exploitable by the people who get paid for the attention? Running a bunch of VMs that "pay attention" to the ad seems like a cheap thing to rig up.

Taek 9y ago
I have been hoping for a long time that browsers could use cryptocurrency to monetize publishers through methods other than advertising. Was very glad to see Brave pairing a browser with cryptocurrency (though I don't know how they will handle the scalability issues), and then very disappointed to see that it's not actually replacing ads, but instead encouraging users to watch them.
- lwansbrough 9y ago
  Brave already supports this.
- hudon 9y ago
  Why do you need a cryptocurrency to make the model work? If people wanted to do this, couldn't Chrome build a "Google Token" that does the same thing?
  - GreaterFool 9y ago
    They could and it would probably not get enough traction. "Just another walled garden and more power for Google to squash whoever they like or don't like, sigh". Hard to get people excited about that. I suppose the idea here is that crypto-based tokens are more open: I'd need to research how exactly it is handled on Ethereum chain but I imagine Brave won't solely be in control over what happens to BAT.
  - Taek 9y ago
    Interoperability I think is the biggest hurdle. There's nothing particularly special about blockchains here except that it's really easy to move between currencies once you've got accounts on the right exchanges. Without cryptocurrency, you'd need some way for a user to pay all websites they visit. Ads can go on any browser and be served from any company. Ad networks don't need to interoperate. But if a user is paying publishers, it's a huge hurdle to have to pay a new publisher payment processor every time you visit a new site. Sure, 70% might accept Google payments, but what about the rest of them? And what about the users who are not on Google's payment platform? Not that cryptocurrency solves all these problems. It's still a hard thing to do. But I think it at least lowers the barrier.
    - hudon 9y ago
      > it's really easy to move between currencies once you've got accounts on the right exchanges. wait so the users are going to need more than one kind of token? And they're going to need to open accounts on an exchange? > Without cryptocurrency, you'd need some way for a user to pay all websites they visit. Ads can go on any browser and be served from any company. Ad networks don't need to interoperate. But if a user is paying publishers, it's a huge hurdle to have to pay a new publisher payment processor every time you visit a new site. Sure, 70% might accept Google payments, but what about the rest of them? And what about the users who are not on Google's payment platform? Hold on, BAT is 1 kind of token. All the ad publishers need to integrate with the BAT. How is this different than having all ad publishers integrating with Google Token? If there is a competing token, let's call it CAT, how is that different than the AppleToken competing with the Google Token, from the user's perspective?
      - Jabanga 9y ago
        >How is this different than having all ad publishers integrating with Google Token? Presumably you wouldn't want to be locked into a proprietary platform that can raise fees once it has an effective monopoly.
        hudon 9y ago
- richdougherty 9y ago
  To build on what you're saying, I'd also like to pay publishers for content instead of viewing advertising. However, advertising has two useful features. 1. It provides a default way of paying publishers without any action by the consumer (i.e. the see an ad if they don't set up a payment system) 2. It establish a price for viewing the content, (i.e. the price that an advertiser would pay to show you an ad) For reason 1, I can see how it is necessary to have an advertising option as a default to get the ecosystem rolling. However I really, really hope that users would get the option of paying publishers directly instead of seeing ads. This is where reason 2 comes into play, it provides a market price for us to pay for the content we consume - just pay what an advertiser would pay.
Spivak 9y ago
> Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? Yeah, I don't understand Chrome users either. > Edit: People already do this with mixed success. There's also nothing stopping you from modifying the browser falsely report that the user actually viewed the ads.
- Taek 9y ago
  They don't get paid to view the ads though, there's no real motivation right now for most users to spoof views. But if you are receiving payment for spoofing, you will have a lot more interest in doing it effectively. Especially if the payment is in cryptocurrency, which can't be reversed.
- jasonkostempski 9y ago
  Chrome at least isn't promoted as a great way to be tracked and get ads, they hide their shame like a proper company :) I know fake views are already a thing but it seems like a big issue to leave unsolved and if it's the only vulnerability, efforts on that particular kind of "fraud" will double down. Any model that gives the users machine a key role, isn't going to work long term, it'll eventually be the same ol' cat-and-mouse/race-to-the-bottom games of yore. Advertisers and content creators need to get back to basics, work together and leave the end users machines out of it. I know that doesn't work well for the little guy with a blog, they'll just have to work harder to earn their buck, like they always should have.
problems 9y ago
Indeed an open source browser that anyone can bot doesn't mix well with the idea of paying people to just watch something... crypto currencies work because they don't rely on trust. This is precisely the opposite of that. The whole idea is fucked on premise right off the bat. Of course, Ethereum users snap it up at ICO within a single block for something like $33 million. There's way too much stupidity in that market at the moment.
- homakov 9y ago
  It would be true, but someone like Brendan Eich mush be onto something, right? He can't risk all his reputation for just 33M?
  - problems 9y ago
    Unless he's going to give everyone new computers which are locked down at the hardware level such that we can't clone and emulate them, there's really nothing he can do. This idea is doomed, plain and simple.
slewis 9y ago
The browser is ad-free and tracker-free by default and they've stated a few times that it will remain so. Business concerns aside, it really does significantly improve my mobile browsing experience (I'm using it on iOS).
pmontra 9y ago
Yep, it looks like a very good reason not to use Brave. It could be anonymous monitoring as they say but I'd feel safer to use a forked version with all the tracking code removed from source.
wcummings 9y ago
There is gunna be sooooooo much fraud. It's a huge problem with traditional display ads no reason this would be different.
BrendanEich 9y ago
Brave blocks ads and trackers by default, period. Ads will be opt-in and use a separate open source coomponent. Anonymous donations (prototyped with bitcoin already, see Payments panel in Preferences/Settings) are opt-in too and they will remain bundled by of course off by default. With user-private ad slots, we expect users will auto-donate their monthly revenue to their top sites.
- jasonkostempski 9y ago
  That's the definitive answer I was looking for. After I read slewis' comment, I took another look and I still couldn't tell if that was truly the case just from the information on the website. The site text is "...privacy-focused browser that blocks malvertisements, trackers..." but I took that to mean it blocks ads/trackers that aren't part of the Brave+BAT system; and "Users, who opt in, receive fewer but better targeted ads..." I took to mean users to who opt in to using Brave. If I was still on iPhone, I would definitely try it based on slewis' recommendation but I'm getting by really well with IceCat and uBlock Origin on Android. Obviously, that isn't any good for content creators. My biggest beef with ads is the tracking and Brave seem to have a really nice solution to that. I think a lot of people will like it. Personally, I don't want my machine involved in any of the logistics of getting ads presented to me. I think ads should embedded directly in the content and whatever content providers and advertisers need to do to keep each other honest should be their concern, never the users. That's all they ever should have been allowed to do. Just because they've been able to track users in a creepy kind of way for the past decade or two, doesn't mean it's a good path forward, at least for users. Keeping it local is the least creepy solution, but only if no tracking is not an option and, at least for now, it is.
  - BrendanEich 9y ago
    You say "I think ads should [be] embedded directly in the content .... That's all they ever should have been allowed to do" you seem to be saying "only first party [direct sold, advertisiing brand buys space from publisher and gives publisher an image or video to embed] ads, and no third party tracking or ads". Do I understand you correctly? The problem is most publishers do not have scale, and (flip side of same coin), together they are too numerous, for publishers to do direct sales to brands of all or even their best ad space (inventory). They must use third parties. Advertisers, too, want to "buy audience" across many sites, which means tracking in the current ecosystem. Thus, today, in any of the top browsers that lack ad and tracker blocking, your machine is already deeply involved in "the logistics of getting ads". Almost all ads, even direct sold ones, place via script on page interacting with the main ad server scripts (Google Doubleclick For Publishers [DFP]). You can't have it both ways: either you need an active user agent that blocks third party cookies and scripts, as Brave and a few others do; or you will have ad logistics running amok on your device, in your browser or webview (which is why we get a 3-7x speed win on Android vs. Chrome). The only path forward is to break the web by blocking third party scripts and trackers. Wishing for publishers to do direct ads as if pasting up ad art on paper won't work.

Taek 9y ago

I have been hoping for a long time that browsers could use cryptocurrency to monetize publishers through methods other than advertising. Was very glad to see Brave pairing a browser with cryptocurrency (though I don't know how they will handle the scalability issues), and then very disappointed to see that it's not actually replacing ads, but instead encouraging users to watch them.

lwansbrough 9y ago
Brave already supports this.
hudon 9y ago
Why do you need a cryptocurrency to make the model work? If people wanted to do this, couldn't Chrome build a "Google Token" that does the same thing?
- GreaterFool 9y ago
  They could and it would probably not get enough traction. "Just another walled garden and more power for Google to squash whoever they like or don't like, sigh". Hard to get people excited about that. I suppose the idea here is that crypto-based tokens are more open: I'd need to research how exactly it is handled on Ethereum chain but I imagine Brave won't solely be in control over what happens to BAT.
- Taek 9y ago
  Interoperability I think is the biggest hurdle. There's nothing particularly special about blockchains here except that it's really easy to move between currencies once you've got accounts on the right exchanges. Without cryptocurrency, you'd need some way for a user to pay all websites they visit. Ads can go on any browser and be served from any company. Ad networks don't need to interoperate. But if a user is paying publishers, it's a huge hurdle to have to pay a new publisher payment processor every time you visit a new site. Sure, 70% might accept Google payments, but what about the rest of them? And what about the users who are not on Google's payment platform? Not that cryptocurrency solves all these problems. It's still a hard thing to do. But I think it at least lowers the barrier.
  - hudon 9y ago
    > it's really easy to move between currencies once you've got accounts on the right exchanges. wait so the users are going to need more than one kind of token? And they're going to need to open accounts on an exchange? > Without cryptocurrency, you'd need some way for a user to pay all websites they visit. Ads can go on any browser and be served from any company. Ad networks don't need to interoperate. But if a user is paying publishers, it's a huge hurdle to have to pay a new publisher payment processor every time you visit a new site. Sure, 70% might accept Google payments, but what about the rest of them? And what about the users who are not on Google's payment platform? Hold on, BAT is 1 kind of token. All the ad publishers need to integrate with the BAT. How is this different than having all ad publishers integrating with Google Token? If there is a competing token, let's call it CAT, how is that different than the AppleToken competing with the Google Token, from the user's perspective?
    - Jabanga 9y ago
      >How is this different than having all ad publishers integrating with Google Token? Presumably you wouldn't want to be locked into a proprietary platform that can raise fees once it has an effective monopoly.
      - hudon 9y ago
richdougherty 9y ago
To build on what you're saying, I'd also like to pay publishers for content instead of viewing advertising. However, advertising has two useful features. 1. It provides a default way of paying publishers without any action by the consumer (i.e. the see an ad if they don't set up a payment system) 2. It establish a price for viewing the content, (i.e. the price that an advertiser would pay to show you an ad) For reason 1, I can see how it is necessary to have an advertising option as a default to get the ecosystem rolling. However I really, really hope that users would get the option of paying publishers directly instead of seeing ads. This is where reason 2 comes into play, it provides a market price for us to pay for the content we consume - just pay what an advertiser would pay.

Spivak 9y ago

> Who would run a browser specifically designed to track and show ads? Yeah, I don't understand Chrome users either. > Edit: People already do this with mixed success. There's also nothing stopping you from modifying the browser falsely report that the user actually viewed the ads.

Taek 9y ago
They don't get paid to view the ads though, there's no real motivation right now for most users to spoof views. But if you are receiving payment for spoofing, you will have a lot more interest in doing it effectively. Especially if the payment is in cryptocurrency, which can't be reversed.
jasonkostempski 9y ago
Chrome at least isn't promoted as a great way to be tracked and get ads, they hide their shame like a proper company :) I know fake views are already a thing but it seems like a big issue to leave unsolved and if it's the only vulnerability, efforts on that particular kind of "fraud" will double down. Any model that gives the users machine a key role, isn't going to work long term, it'll eventually be the same ol' cat-and-mouse/race-to-the-bottom games of yore. Advertisers and content creators need to get back to basics, work together and leave the end users machines out of it. I know that doesn't work well for the little guy with a blog, they'll just have to work harder to earn their buck, like they always should have.

problems 9y ago

Indeed an open source browser that anyone can bot doesn't mix well with the idea of paying people to just watch something... crypto currencies work because they don't rely on trust. This is precisely the opposite of that. The whole idea is fucked on premise right off the bat. Of course, Ethereum users snap it up at ICO within a single block for something like $33 million. There's way too much stupidity in that market at the moment.

homakov 9y ago
It would be true, but someone like Brendan Eich mush be onto something, right? He can't risk all his reputation for just 33M?
- problems 9y ago
  Unless he's going to give everyone new computers which are locked down at the hardware level such that we can't clone and emulate them, there's really nothing he can do. This idea is doomed, plain and simple.

slewis 9y ago

The browser is ad-free and tracker-free by default and they've stated a few times that it will remain so. Business concerns aside, it really does significantly improve my mobile browsing experience (I'm using it on iOS).

pmontra 9y ago

Yep, it looks like a very good reason not to use Brave. It could be anonymous monitoring as they say but I'd feel safer to use a forked version with all the tracking code removed from source.

wcummings 9y ago

There is gunna be sooooooo much fraud. It's a huge problem with traditional display ads no reason this would be different.

BrendanEich 9y ago

Brave blocks ads and trackers by default, period. Ads will be opt-in and use a separate open source coomponent. Anonymous donations (prototyped with bitcoin already, see Payments panel in Preferences/Settings) are opt-in too and they will remain bundled by of course off by default. With user-private ad slots, we expect users will auto-donate their monthly revenue to their top sites.

jasonkostempski 9y ago
That's the definitive answer I was looking for. After I read slewis' comment, I took another look and I still couldn't tell if that was truly the case just from the information on the website. The site text is "...privacy-focused browser that blocks malvertisements, trackers..." but I took that to mean it blocks ads/trackers that aren't part of the Brave+BAT system; and "Users, who opt in, receive fewer but better targeted ads..." I took to mean users to who opt in to using Brave. If I was still on iPhone, I would definitely try it based on slewis' recommendation but I'm getting by really well with IceCat and uBlock Origin on Android. Obviously, that isn't any good for content creators. My biggest beef with ads is the tracking and Brave seem to have a really nice solution to that. I think a lot of people will like it. Personally, I don't want my machine involved in any of the logistics of getting ads presented to me. I think ads should embedded directly in the content and whatever content providers and advertisers need to do to keep each other honest should be their concern, never the users. That's all they ever should have been allowed to do. Just because they've been able to track users in a creepy kind of way for the past decade or two, doesn't mean it's a good path forward, at least for users. Keeping it local is the least creepy solution, but only if no tracking is not an option and, at least for now, it is.
- BrendanEich 9y ago
  You say "I think ads should [be] embedded directly in the content .... That's all they ever should have been allowed to do" you seem to be saying "only first party [direct sold, advertisiing brand buys space from publisher and gives publisher an image or video to embed] ads, and no third party tracking or ads". Do I understand you correctly? The problem is most publishers do not have scale, and (flip side of same coin), together they are too numerous, for publishers to do direct sales to brands of all or even their best ad space (inventory). They must use third parties. Advertisers, too, want to "buy audience" across many sites, which means tracking in the current ecosystem. Thus, today, in any of the top browsers that lack ad and tracker blocking, your machine is already deeply involved in "the logistics of getting ads". Almost all ads, even direct sold ones, place via script on page interacting with the main ad server scripts (Google Doubleclick For Publishers [DFP]). You can't have it both ways: either you need an active user agent that blocks third party cookies and scripts, as Brave and a few others do; or you will have ad logistics running amok on your device, in your browser or webview (which is why we get a 3-7x speed win on Android vs. Chrome). The only path forward is to break the web by blocking third party scripts and trackers. Wishing for publishers to do direct ads as if pasting up ad art on paper won't work.