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I assume this was posted because of the Otto Warmbier situation? [1] [1]: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40308028 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-can

I assume this was posted because of the Otto Warmbier situation? [1] [1]: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40308028 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40308028

jk2323 9y ago
Well, I don't want to defend or speak for North Korea. But there was a lot of anger regarding what happened to Warmbier. Obviously NK overreacted for talking a "propaganda poster". He got XX years hard labor. But a westerner is normally kept in a hotel room in NK until an agreement has been reached and then he is released. Warmbier had his medical "incident", as far as I know, over a year ago. So they must have fed him artificially and cared for him since. Also, AFAIK, they send an NMR image of his brain to the US doctors before he was released. I doubt that many North Koreans have access to this level of treatment. So unfortunate this story is, I advise to use caution before reaching quick judgments.
- trendia 9y ago
  They took care of him after the incident that caused brain damage, but is there any proof the incident itself was botulism?
  - jk2323 9y ago
    No. We don't know what happened. I am not an MD. I am sure there are many options what could happened. But the way he was taken care of and returned (they could have claimed he died) seems to suggest that he was not put into this condition on purpose.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      He was only returned after the Swedish embassy learned about his condition. He had already been in a coma for a year by then and would have stayed in the DPRK for the remainder of his sentence otherwise. If they claimed that a man in his twenties had died of a heart attack as they did with Japanese citizens they abducted, that would have been an even bigger scandal.
  - auganov 9y ago
    His doctors say the pattern of brain damage does not match that of botulism. More symptomatic of a respiratory arrest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJKmyCKM7W0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJKmyCKM7W0
    - shovelingstuff 9y ago
      The pattern of brain injury they're referring to is probably "anoxic brain injury." Botulism itself doesn't cause that, but it certainly can cause respiratory failure (by paralyzing the phrenic nerve), which can then cause anoxic brain injury. There's no reliable way to tell at this point whether botulism was the cause in Warmbier's case (there's no test to find out after the fact). I'm an MD. Of course the NK story is very suspect. We need more information, but it seems unlikely that we'll get it.
      - dmix 9y ago
        We're sure that he wasn't because he was beaten though, right? There hasn't been any US prisoners in NK who were physically abused during their stay for PR purposes. I'm curious if he sustained a fall or some other accidental injury. Maybe he caused it himself and didn't get proper treatment. He was held for an unusually long time compared to most people.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  >But there was a lot of anger regarding what happened to Warmbier. The news coverage of the incident has seemed rather strange to me. Nobody would be shocked if he had exited an US prison in a coma, although I guess people don't get out for "humanitarian reasons" in the US. (Except once every 4/8 years, I guess)
  - pm90 9y ago
    I think the outrage is moreso because he wasn't a spy or someone trying to attack DPRK or the North Koreans. He was imprisoned on relatively minor (speaking in context) charges and instead of simply being held prisoner seems to have suffered permanent disability.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      Yes, and I'm trying to say that this would be nothing out of the ordinary for someone imprisoned for minor crimes in the US. I mean in the US they regularly cook prisoners to death http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2009/09/dog-days-turn-deadly-americas-prisons/ http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2009/09/dog-days-tu...
      - pm90 9y ago
        Wow... what did I just read.... I knew the prisoner situation in the US was harsh but this is unbelievable.
- dmix 9y ago
  > But a westerner is normally kept in a hotel room in NK until an agreement has been reached and then he is released. This is not true. There have been multiple stories, such as the two journalists released a while back, that they are kept in small cement cells, often without light. It may vary depending on the person but I haven't heard someone being held in anything other than a typical prison cell. They aren't beaten or physically abused but they do undergo some long-lasting psychological abuse. Their stay usually lasts months as well.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dave_sullivan 9y ago
I saw this recently too, in Northern California. Beware nachos from family-owned gas stations... http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/05/23/529589579/nacho-cheese-sauce-tainted-with-botulism-kills-california-man http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/05/23/529589579/nac...
- weaksauce 9y ago
  I didn't hear about this one but there was a recent outbreak of wild mushrooms being sold up in Northern California. It poisoned something like 17 people including one young child. I believe at least a few died from them.
  - narrator 9y ago
    Eating misidentified wild mushrooms causes liver failure not botulism.

I assume this was posted because of the Otto Warmbier situation? [1] [1]: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40308028 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40308028

jk2323 9y ago

Well, I don't want to defend or speak for North Korea. But there was a lot of anger regarding what happened to Warmbier. Obviously NK overreacted for talking a "propaganda poster". He got XX years hard labor. But a westerner is normally kept in a hotel room in NK until an agreement has been reached and then he is released. Warmbier had his medical "incident", as far as I know, over a year ago. So they must have fed him artificially and cared for him since. Also, AFAIK, they send an NMR image of his brain to the US doctors before he was released. I doubt that many North Koreans have access to this level of treatment. So unfortunate this story is, I advise to use caution before reaching quick judgments.

trendia 9y ago
They took care of him after the incident that caused brain damage, but is there any proof the incident itself was botulism?
- jk2323 9y ago
  No. We don't know what happened. I am not an MD. I am sure there are many options what could happened. But the way he was taken care of and returned (they could have claimed he died) seems to suggest that he was not put into this condition on purpose.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    He was only returned after the Swedish embassy learned about his condition. He had already been in a coma for a year by then and would have stayed in the DPRK for the remainder of his sentence otherwise. If they claimed that a man in his twenties had died of a heart attack as they did with Japanese citizens they abducted, that would have been an even bigger scandal.
- auganov 9y ago
  His doctors say the pattern of brain damage does not match that of botulism. More symptomatic of a respiratory arrest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJKmyCKM7W0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJKmyCKM7W0
  - shovelingstuff 9y ago
    The pattern of brain injury they're referring to is probably "anoxic brain injury." Botulism itself doesn't cause that, but it certainly can cause respiratory failure (by paralyzing the phrenic nerve), which can then cause anoxic brain injury. There's no reliable way to tell at this point whether botulism was the cause in Warmbier's case (there's no test to find out after the fact). I'm an MD. Of course the NK story is very suspect. We need more information, but it seems unlikely that we'll get it.
    - dmix 9y ago
      We're sure that he wasn't because he was beaten though, right? There hasn't been any US prisoners in NK who were physically abused during their stay for PR purposes. I'm curious if he sustained a fall or some other accidental injury. Maybe he caused it himself and didn't get proper treatment. He was held for an unusually long time compared to most people.
ryanlol 9y ago
>But there was a lot of anger regarding what happened to Warmbier. The news coverage of the incident has seemed rather strange to me. Nobody would be shocked if he had exited an US prison in a coma, although I guess people don't get out for "humanitarian reasons" in the US. (Except once every 4/8 years, I guess)
- pm90 9y ago
  I think the outrage is moreso because he wasn't a spy or someone trying to attack DPRK or the North Koreans. He was imprisoned on relatively minor (speaking in context) charges and instead of simply being held prisoner seems to have suffered permanent disability.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    Yes, and I'm trying to say that this would be nothing out of the ordinary for someone imprisoned for minor crimes in the US. I mean in the US they regularly cook prisoners to death http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2009/09/dog-days-turn-deadly-americas-prisons/ http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2009/09/dog-days-tu...
    - pm90 9y ago
      Wow... what did I just read.... I knew the prisoner situation in the US was harsh but this is unbelievable.
dmix 9y ago
> But a westerner is normally kept in a hotel room in NK until an agreement has been reached and then he is released. This is not true. There have been multiple stories, such as the two journalists released a while back, that they are kept in small cement cells, often without light. It may vary depending on the person but I haven't heard someone being held in anything other than a typical prison cell. They aren't beaten or physically abused but they do undergo some long-lasting psychological abuse. Their stay usually lasts months as well.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dave_sullivan 9y ago

I saw this recently too, in Northern California. Beware nachos from family-owned gas stations... http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/05/23/529589579/nacho-cheese-sauce-tainted-with-botulism-kills-california-man http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/05/23/529589579/nac...

weaksauce 9y ago
I didn't hear about this one but there was a recent outbreak of wild mushrooms being sold up in Northern California. It poisoned something like 17 people including one young child. I believe at least a few died from them.
- narrator 9y ago
  Eating misidentified wild mushrooms causes liver failure not botulism.