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> we clear-cut forests Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? > we built Boston's streets to fit horses and not cars, we bu

> we clear-cut forests Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? > we built Boston's streets to fit horses and not cars, we built houses before public transit, etc. You want to leave earth because streets are too crammed for cars? Seriously?

ceejayoz 9y ago
> Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? We're not perfect, but we've come a long ways from the excesses of the early Industrial Revolution in how we treat our environment. The developed world generally practices sustainable logging these days. A Martian colony would use clean energy, etc. > You want to leave earth because streets are too crammed for cars? Seriously? Congratulations on slaying the strawman. No, that's simply an minor example of how starting a planetary civilization with a fresh slate and modern knowledge could have benefits, despite "human nature".
- babyrainbow 9y ago
  OK. I will spell it out for you. I think greed, insecurity and shortsighted thinking are the root causes of most evils on earth. Does going to mars fix that?
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    I think Mars offers us a chance to short-circuit some of that. Fights over land? We'd be opening up an entire Earth's worth of surface area. Fights over resources? See above. Fights over oil? None. Fights over arbitrarily-drawn national boundaries drawn by collapsing colonialist empires? None. It's remarkably pessimistic to argue that colonizing a new planet after two centuries of experience with industrialization, democracy, environmentalism, ex-colonialism, etc. under our belt wouldn't be at least slightly better than the situations we find ourselves in on Earth.
    - babyrainbow 9y ago
      > It's remarkably pessimistic to argue that colonizing a new planet after two centuries of experience with industrialization, democracy, environmentalism, ex-colonialism, etc. under our belt wouldn't be at least slightly better than the situations we find ourselves in on Earth. Do you know who will be still calling shots? Politicians/Businessmen. I am not even addressing the rest of your comment because that is quite frankly, very naive wishful thinking...You say that is pessimistic. But tell me, look around, do you see anything that make you feel even remotly optimistic?
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    > I think greed, insecurity and shortsighted thinking are the root causes of most evils on earth. Does going to mars fix that? Are you saying that the only worthwhile thing to do is come up with something that completely fixes one or more of those things? If not then what are you trying to argue there? Looking at your other comments in this thread, for someone who thinks short-sighted thinking is a big problem you seem to have strange issue with solutions that aren't directly addressing the here and now.
    - babyrainbow 9y ago
      >Are you saying that the only worthwhile thing to do is come up with something that completely fixes one or more of those things? Not really >what are you trying to argue there? only how this mars thing won't solve anything in long term... > who thinks short-sighted thinking is a big problem you seem to have strange issue with solutions that aren't directly addressing the here and now... Of course. That you can see a mile ahead does not mean that you can ignore the pothole right in front of you.

ceejayoz 9y ago

> Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? We're not perfect, but we've come a long ways from the excesses of the early Industrial Revolution in how we treat our environment. The developed world generally practices sustainable logging these days. A Martian colony would use clean energy, etc. > You want to leave earth because streets are too crammed for cars? Seriously? Congratulations on slaying the strawman. No, that's simply an minor example of how starting a planetary civilization with a fresh slate and modern knowledge could have benefits, despite "human nature".

babyrainbow 9y ago
OK. I will spell it out for you. I think greed, insecurity and shortsighted thinking are the root causes of most evils on earth. Does going to mars fix that?
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  I think Mars offers us a chance to short-circuit some of that. Fights over land? We'd be opening up an entire Earth's worth of surface area. Fights over resources? See above. Fights over oil? None. Fights over arbitrarily-drawn national boundaries drawn by collapsing colonialist empires? None. It's remarkably pessimistic to argue that colonizing a new planet after two centuries of experience with industrialization, democracy, environmentalism, ex-colonialism, etc. under our belt wouldn't be at least slightly better than the situations we find ourselves in on Earth.
  - babyrainbow 9y ago
    > It's remarkably pessimistic to argue that colonizing a new planet after two centuries of experience with industrialization, democracy, environmentalism, ex-colonialism, etc. under our belt wouldn't be at least slightly better than the situations we find ourselves in on Earth. Do you know who will be still calling shots? Politicians/Businessmen. I am not even addressing the rest of your comment because that is quite frankly, very naive wishful thinking...You say that is pessimistic. But tell me, look around, do you see anything that make you feel even remotly optimistic?
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  > I think greed, insecurity and shortsighted thinking are the root causes of most evils on earth. Does going to mars fix that? Are you saying that the only worthwhile thing to do is come up with something that completely fixes one or more of those things? If not then what are you trying to argue there? Looking at your other comments in this thread, for someone who thinks short-sighted thinking is a big problem you seem to have strange issue with solutions that aren't directly addressing the here and now.
  - babyrainbow 9y ago
    >Are you saying that the only worthwhile thing to do is come up with something that completely fixes one or more of those things? Not really >what are you trying to argue there? only how this mars thing won't solve anything in long term... > who thinks short-sighted thinking is a big problem you seem to have strange issue with solutions that aren't directly addressing the here and now... Of course. That you can see a mile ahead does not mean that you can ignore the pothole right in front of you.