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Microsoft Surface Laptop Teardown

137 points by kevlar1818 9y ago

jp555 9y ago
Not to mention Alcantara is a pretty horrible product that will wear away quickly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebUNgMhQV4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebUNgMhQV4
- Roritharr 9y ago
  I don't know why you are being downvoted, this is a valid concern. Microsoft should have at least come up with a solution to exchange/replace these with something more sturdy.
  - strictnein 9y ago
    Do you think they just randomly chose a material and did no stress/durability testing on it? A random video from some random guy about car applications of the material is about as unrelated as possible. You're not sitting on the material for 2-3 hours a day.
    - npunt 9y ago
      I thought it was relevant. Alcantara is a new material in computers, and we don't yet know how the wear will be. The video describes the wear on a steering wheel, which seems comparable given its also something the user puts their hands on to interact with. As we know, hands are dirty & oily, and thats one of the biggest challenges in choosing what materials to build a computer out of. See ABS vs PBT vs other plastics in the mechanical keyboard world - people care about this. The video at least gives us something we can look out for. There may be a wide variety of Alcantara types out there that wear differently, we don't know though.
    - nxc18 9y ago
      Microsoft has a long history of not making durable products. I've been a bit of a fan boy, and all but one piece of Microsoft hardware I've owned has needed factory service. Xbox 360, Zune 80, Surface RT, Surface 3, Surface Pen, Nokia 920. Its embarrassing. Only my Xbox One has been spared, but I've used it less than 100 hours, so who knows how it would fare if I actually used it. I've never met a surface owner who didn't have a serious hardware or software failure within the warranty period. Its embarrassing. Questioning the validity of their product design is 100% valid.
    - Roritharr 9y ago
      I own a Surface Pro 2 since it was launched and am on my third keyboard. They all look disgusting because of their fabric-like material. I bet that Alcantara is no different.
    - jp555 9y ago
      In the video he says it holds up well to sitting on it, but anywhere your hands are (steering wheel, shifter), it wears away in just weeks. I can imagine a similar problem with the hand rest area on the laptop.
- likeclockwork 9y ago
  They should bring back shark dick. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-every-gadget-feels-like-shark-dick https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-every-gadget-...
TailorJones 9y ago
Horrible auto-play video
city41 9y ago
I guess Microsoft's plan if someone's Surface has a problem is to just give them a whole new one?
- devopsproject 9y ago
  Doesn't look like there is much of a choice. I wonder if this was a design or a business decision. I could imagine a lot of cost could be scrapped by not having staff and repair facilities.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  Microsoft wanted to beat Sony on the 360 launch so they shipped a system they knew had serious cooling problems. They ended up losing tens of millions on that though.
adrianN 9y ago
I wish the EU would come up with some law that forces all computers to be upgradeable. At least RAM, storage, and batteries should be easily exchangeable by a normal user.
- npunt 9y ago
  This would be such a double-edged sword, essentially freezing development to where we are today (or were several years ago), rather than pursuing more compact and more highly integrated form factors. I'd rather we continue the march toward making the physical form factor of computers slowly disappear, which will be a much bigger win for everyone. That said, during this march we need to allow certain frequent repairs (like screens and buttons) to be easily accessible, because that is fair. Mandating upgradability means bulking things up with upgrade slots, rather than integrating things onto a lower power, more compact SoC. The other benefit of this is environmental, since you're making a smaller system with fewer components over time.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    So what? Upgradeable or replaceable devices prevent a LOAD of electronic waste. Common stuff that breaks on phones: screens, USB jack (hi Samsung, I managed to break EVERY USB port on my 5 Samsung phones so far), 3.5mm jack (hello pants dirt, my old friend). Worst phones are these where the USB port is soldered directly to the motherboard and not a cheap daughter board - next to zero repair shops have a solder reflow oven or the necessary skill to operate one, and it certainly doesn't help that there seem to be thousands of different versions of a micro USB jack. Common stuff that breaks on laptops: keyboard (hi coffee, hi fat cat), HDMI jack and especially power jacks. Both get hit by batteries going bonkers - I had a couple of laptops with swollen batteries, and I'm happy I still have a phone with a replaceable battery, been through two batteries now. Having to throw away a (possibly) 1500+ € device because COMMON parts, that cost CENTS, cannot be serviced, is beyond ridiculous.
    - npunt 9y ago
      Perhaps you missed this part in my comment: > That said, during this march we need to allow certain frequent repairs (like screens and buttons) to be easily accessible, because that is fair. Keyboards and buttons make sense, as those are mechanical parts users interact with a lot. Ports are a different story. Is over-use of ports really going to be as much an issue in in 5-10 years? We're fast trending away from lots of ports, favoring wireless for networking, audio/video streaming, and charging. And as far as standards go, USB-C and Lightning are better designed to break at the cable without breaking the device - a much better (engineering) approach to solving this problem. Also, at some point if you break USB jacks on 5 of your Samsung phones, perhaps you should buy from a different vendor that can make something more durable. I think that goes for a lot of cheap products - they break more often because they're not built as well. Introducing legislation to reduce the frustration of cheap products today would come at the expense of forward progress and finding engineering solutions to these in the years to come.
sxates 9y ago
Aren't these devices being targeted at the education sector, where they may be assigned to students? Is there perhaps some design intent here to prevent tampering? One other potential benefit may be less worry about your laptop shipment being intercepted in Langley before delivery.
- npunt 9y ago
  If they are targeted at the education sector, as in deployed in schools, they should be MORE repairable. Students wreck stuff they don't own. For instance, latest (non-Pro) iPad went back to a more repairable chassis that educators are liking because the screen is much easier to replace. And Chromebooks are so cheap if they break it's not a huge loss. I don't think the Surface is particularly targeted to edu enough to alter their hardware assembly decisions though.
  - jermaustin1 9y ago
    > Students wreck stuff they don't own. Students wreck stuff the DO own, as well.
    - Retr0spectrum 9y ago
      * Stuff their parents bought for them.
- rhodysurf 9y ago
  If they are then they seemed to miss the mark with the price
- samch 9y ago
  In all seriousness, would this be a good candidate for using as a sort of "dummy" travel laptop? I'm thinking of something along the lines of sealing off the ports too. That way, if intercepted or taken for "inspection", there's almost no chance that it could be hacked by physical access without leaving obvious clues.
- mcguire 9y ago
sbierwagen 9y ago
You can't take apart a surface laptop without destroying it. "Open" in a laptop context sounds to me more like... opening it, you know, so you can see the display and type on the keyboard.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
  Yes, would request @dang to modify the title.
  - zitterbewegung 9y ago
    Modify the title and point it to iFixit which is a better source. https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Tea...
    - sctb 9y ago
      Thanks, all! We've updated the link from https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/you-cant-open-the-microsoft-surface-laptop-without-literally-destroying-it https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/you-cant-open-the.... (The best way to get our attention for things like this is to email hn@ycombinator.com)
      - kevlar1818 9y ago
        While I understand why you changed the link, I don't completely agree with the executive action. I don't like having my name attached to a link I didn't want shared. Vice is a high-quality publication, and it brought a compelling angle to the iFixit review. As the OP, I wanted to share the Vice article (which links to the iFixit review).
sputknick 9y ago
This sounds to me like a specific instance of the "most users don't want it, so we won't provide it" problem in computing. Similar to the lack of MacBook for power users. People who want to open their laptop are a tiny minority of users, and thus, not a population worth addressing.
- algesten 9y ago
  Who doesn't want to repair a broken laptop that is just out of warranty, but maybe still have a few good years to go?
  - fivestar 9y ago
    There is a debate raging over "right to repair" and the consumer is losing. Honestly, I can't continue buying $1000 smart phones. It's just not worth it. And no, I'm not going to insure them, either. That whole concept is a bag of dicks.
    - smt88 9y ago
      Does "right to repair" have anything to do with "repairability"? There are definitely some things, like iPhones, that might not be possible to build in a repairable way without decreasing the quality of the product. Perhaps Surface is like that, too.
      - mwfunk 9y ago
        This is the biggest conundrum for me. Every engineering decision is a compromise. There are very few cases where making a choice by going down one path isn't a compromise where you're getting one thing but giving up something else. Obviously user-serviceability is a good property for a device to have, but that has a cost as well (a device that is lower quality or less desirable in other ways).
    - foobarchu 9y ago
      I think right to repair is a separate debate. The right to repair movement is about a company being able to sue you for attempting the repair at all. This is about the company doing its darndest to physically prevent repairs. As iFixIt shows, you're welcome to try. Right to repair is also usually centered around software, since that's the crux of the argument used by companies like John Deere. JD technically isn't telling people they can't repair things, just that they can't "hack" their software (an "IP infringement"), which so happens to be a necessary step in repairs.
Lordarminius 9y ago
The Surface laptops, perhaps with the exception of 2012's Surface RT, have earned generally positive reviews, with critics variously commending Microsoft (Microsoft!) for designing attractive-looking hardware that doubles as a reference point for its vision of what a modern Windows-based laptop should look like. Unfortunately for consumers, this seductive vision is apparently incompatible with being able to extend the laptop's useful lifespan on your own This 'seductive vision' is also a direct assault on the consumers right and prerogative (once taken for granted) that he(she) own and do with as he deems fit, any item purchased with his money. First, the abominable Windows 10 which is a brazen intrusion on users privacy; now the Surface. What else MS ?
- dlp211 9y ago
  There is no assault on the consumer here, you can do whatever you like with the device once it is in your possession. No one is forcing you to buy this.
  - Lordarminius 9y ago
    ...you can do whatever you like with the device once it is in your possession.... But you literally cant. Isn't that the point at issue ? I marvel at many responses here that explain this to a "design" issue, "this is what the market wants". No it is not. It is a malicious attempt by Msft to dispossess you of your money and what used to be an unwritten consumer right. We are expected to accept this as the new normal. These companies (msft,apple, etc) are treading the same path as Deere, the tractor makers. How has that turned out for farmers ?
    - dlp211 9y ago
      The difference of course is that in the Deere case, it is a DMCA issue (read legal). Msft is not stopping you in any way from putting the OS that you want on the device, it is not stopping you from opening the device, it isn't even preventing you from upgrading the device. Now have they made it really difficult to do so because of the design choices they made, yes, absolutely, but they are in no way actually preventing you from doing something with the device. You don't have some inherent right to have a device that is easy to disassemble. And the market absolutely wants this. I've owned probably a dozen laptops over the last 15 years or so and the only upgrade I ever did was to add more RAM. I haven't upgraded a laptop in the last 5 years and I always am sure to purchase my laptop with a healthy set of RAM. These devices (Surface and Macbook) are not trying to compete with the $200 devices. They are trying to capture the top 10%(read: those with disposable income) of the market. Panos Panay, Terry Myerson, and Satya Nadella all didn't sit around figuring out how to screw Lordarminius out of their money. They designed a device that the market wanted. Combine the market wants with the fact that there really is just no need to upgrade/update like we used to even just 10 years ago, and this design choice makes perfect sense. My OG 15" Macbook Retina Pro is still a solid laptop today despite being over 5 years old.
dmalvarado 9y ago
You can't eat your cake and have it too. Sleeker, smaller, thinner, cheaper, MOAR BATTERY. That's what the market wants. If the market wanted ClunkBox perpetual computer that was infinitely upgradeable, there would be an option out there. (I'll admit though, the glue is kind of weird. But I guess a natural progression when "no one opens these things anyway")
- Const-me 9y ago
  The market for laptops is big, and it wants both of these, just different segments. There're lots of upgradeable laptops out there, esp. in corporate segment.
- throwaway91111 9y ago
  > If the market wanted ClunkBox perpetual computer that was infinitely upgradeable, there would be an option out there. I'm not so sure this is true. What kind of company would produce reliable hardware that you could maintain over decades? Where's the money in making something that high quality?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > What kind of company would produce reliable hardware that you could maintain over decades? A company whose business model was renting out hardware or services requiring the hardware, rather than selling hardware. But, yeah, that's not what your really looking for.
  - drannex 9y ago
    The company you're talking about is Lenovo with their Thinkpad series. (ALMOST) all of their computers are built this way and are made to last 8+ years.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  There is an option out there. It's called the desktop pc.
  - 9y ago
ocdtrekkie 9y ago
As much as I kinda loathe this tendency, like the ways most people treat phones, these "luxury"-style laptops like the Surface and MacBook brands I kind of assume to be as-is. Most of the people who can afford to spend that kind of money on a high-price laptop with mid-range specs are the sort to buy a new one in a year or two anyhow. If someone's looking for a computer to last them a number of years, I generally wouldn't recommend a Surface product. A mid-range Acer or Dell is not as pretty or thin, but is going to be easier to repair and upgrade over time.
- sliken 9y ago
  Back when Mercedes-Benz was less of a luxury car it was fairly common for people to buy them and keep them 2-3 times as long as the average car. Better engineering, better materials, and better design. While enjoying a lower cost to own and a better resale value. Laptops used to be like that as well. A serious use would pay top $$$ and get a well built "tank" of a device. The designs changed less often, parts availability was good, and the more likely parts to break (charging ports, keyboards, and batteries) were replaceable. Now the opposite has happened. The cheap crappy laptops are easier to work on, and the expensive laptops are thin, sealed, and impossible to work on. Sad.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    Different markets. Ever tried a Dell Precision Mobile Workstation? They're beautiful laptops. High-quality parts, easily repairable, parts are plentifully available. Lot of upgrade and expansion potential. Also as large as a small New York apartment. Why does one assume the Surface Laptop (or MacBook Air) is supposed to meet all possible needs?
Animats 9y ago
That's the price of "thin". We should expect mobile electronics to be sealed watertight at the factory. There's a tradeoff between repairable and bulky. Here's a repair job of mine.[1] This is restoring a Teletype Model 15 from the 1930s. These are completely reparable - every part can be removed without damage. IFixit would give it a score of 10. It's big, heavy, loud, and drips oil, but completely repairable. [1] http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43672.0.html http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43672.0.html
- awinder 9y ago
  Oh come on there's some middleground where you can have repairability without bulky. Macbook pros are not bulky but you can absolutely get inside them to repair & replace parts.
  - glhaynes 9y ago
    Modern MacBook Pros are quite a bit thinner (and more solid/sturdy feeling) than just a few years ago; and, poking around at iFixit's site, it looks like they all get 1/10 scores.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      iFixit is weird about Macs. On the Mac, you can at least open the thing up to replace a fan (the only moving part in the whole machine). You can also replace the battery with a little bit of effort to undo the glue. But it only gets 1/10, compared to the 0 the Surface Laptop gets which you can't even open at all.
      - haldean 9y ago
        It's being compared to things like a Thinkpad: the manual for my T430 has guides to walk you through how to replace every single part inside, as well as the product numbers for each part so you can order individual replacements yourself. Not only is everything easily replaceable and upgradable, but they actually help you do it!
foobarchu 9y ago
I'm a little worried what this says about the actual repair process. If I bought one, had an issue, and sent it to Microsoft, would they just throw it away and send me a new one? I'm pretty sure other companies already do this, but it feels like a massive amount of waste generated in the name of cost savings. Especially with the decline of rare earth materials required for these things.
- dlp211 9y ago
  Rare earth metals are not actually rare.
  - foobarchu 9y ago
    Of course not, but they are increasingly harder to find and mine, and processing them is not nice for the environment.
- bpye 9y ago
  Microsoft can probably scrap it for some parts, screen, keyboard, trackpad, motherboard, speakers, chassis. The cover on the keyboard looks like it's once use though.
  - dlp211 9y ago
    Exactly, they'll take what can be reused, get the additional parts, and sell a refurbished unit.
abandonliberty 9y ago
Why do we link to Vice rather than the people who actually did the work? https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Tea...
- drannex 9y ago
  Because reading the ifixit teardown is actually quite boring. At least the article pointed out literally everything of substance in the teardown. Vice is just an easier way to read it overall.
ge96 9y ago
Oh man that picture slicing through the body with a razor blade made me cringe hahaha. WHYYYYYYYY
bitmapbrother 9y ago
The people that are trying to justify that this is the price you pay for thinness is sickening to me. No, this is the price you pay for inferior engineering. Anything that can be assembled should be able to be disassembled without breaking it.
- mee_too 9y ago
  Simply not true. As en extreme example the human body is assembled by bio machinery, how do you disassemble it without breaking it?
acd 9y ago
Environment score 0
- dlp211 9y ago
  You can't actually make that claim at all based off of this. Repairability =/= environmentally friendly.
kbumsik 9y ago
0 out of 10? Omg I've never seen this score before! Are there any devices got zero score in ifixit?
LostWanderer 9y ago
I always wonder if there will ever be a modular laptop coming out with a 10 to 15 year lifetime. Whenever there is a technological stabilization round the corner,There is another different kind of device created and people run towards the new device.
jaclaz 9y ago
As a side note, I always liked this approach: http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.it/2015/02/surface-pro-3-ssd-upgrade-i7-with-1-tb.html http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.it/2015/02/surface-pro... to change the SSD in a Surface 3. (you need some guts to follow it) But still it is possible, and it is clear that making a "proper" small cover/latch door for allowing changing that would have costed nothing or next to nothing to MS, and added nothing to thickness, so it is IMHO a "political" decision to accelerate the obsolescence of these devices or to attempt to create a repair monopoly, not unlike what Apple attempted (and to a certain extent managed to succeed with).

137 points by kevlar1818 9y ago

Not to mention Alcantara is a pretty horrible product that will wear away quickly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebUNgMhQV4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aebUNgMhQV4

Roritharr 9y ago
I don't know why you are being downvoted, this is a valid concern. Microsoft should have at least come up with a solution to exchange/replace these with something more sturdy.
- strictnein 9y ago
  Do you think they just randomly chose a material and did no stress/durability testing on it? A random video from some random guy about car applications of the material is about as unrelated as possible. You're not sitting on the material for 2-3 hours a day.
  - npunt 9y ago
    I thought it was relevant. Alcantara is a new material in computers, and we don't yet know how the wear will be. The video describes the wear on a steering wheel, which seems comparable given its also something the user puts their hands on to interact with. As we know, hands are dirty & oily, and thats one of the biggest challenges in choosing what materials to build a computer out of. See ABS vs PBT vs other plastics in the mechanical keyboard world - people care about this. The video at least gives us something we can look out for. There may be a wide variety of Alcantara types out there that wear differently, we don't know though.
  - nxc18 9y ago
    Microsoft has a long history of not making durable products. I've been a bit of a fan boy, and all but one piece of Microsoft hardware I've owned has needed factory service. Xbox 360, Zune 80, Surface RT, Surface 3, Surface Pen, Nokia 920. Its embarrassing. Only my Xbox One has been spared, but I've used it less than 100 hours, so who knows how it would fare if I actually used it. I've never met a surface owner who didn't have a serious hardware or software failure within the warranty period. Its embarrassing. Questioning the validity of their product design is 100% valid.
  - Roritharr 9y ago
    I own a Surface Pro 2 since it was launched and am on my third keyboard. They all look disgusting because of their fabric-like material. I bet that Alcantara is no different.
  - jp555 9y ago
    In the video he says it holds up well to sitting on it, but anywhere your hands are (steering wheel, shifter), it wears away in just weeks. I can imagine a similar problem with the hand rest area on the laptop.
likeclockwork 9y ago
They should bring back shark dick. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-every-gadget-feels-like-shark-dick https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-every-gadget-...

TailorJones 9y ago

Horrible auto-play video

city41 9y ago

I guess Microsoft's plan if someone's Surface has a problem is to just give them a whole new one?

devopsproject 9y ago
Doesn't look like there is much of a choice. I wonder if this was a design or a business decision. I could imagine a lot of cost could be scrapped by not having staff and repair facilities.
djsumdog 9y ago
Microsoft wanted to beat Sony on the 360 launch so they shipped a system they knew had serious cooling problems. They ended up losing tens of millions on that though.

adrianN 9y ago

I wish the EU would come up with some law that forces all computers to be upgradeable. At least RAM, storage, and batteries should be easily exchangeable by a normal user.

npunt 9y ago
This would be such a double-edged sword, essentially freezing development to where we are today (or were several years ago), rather than pursuing more compact and more highly integrated form factors. I'd rather we continue the march toward making the physical form factor of computers slowly disappear, which will be a much bigger win for everyone. That said, during this march we need to allow certain frequent repairs (like screens and buttons) to be easily accessible, because that is fair. Mandating upgradability means bulking things up with upgrade slots, rather than integrating things onto a lower power, more compact SoC. The other benefit of this is environmental, since you're making a smaller system with fewer components over time.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  So what? Upgradeable or replaceable devices prevent a LOAD of electronic waste. Common stuff that breaks on phones: screens, USB jack (hi Samsung, I managed to break EVERY USB port on my 5 Samsung phones so far), 3.5mm jack (hello pants dirt, my old friend). Worst phones are these where the USB port is soldered directly to the motherboard and not a cheap daughter board - next to zero repair shops have a solder reflow oven or the necessary skill to operate one, and it certainly doesn't help that there seem to be thousands of different versions of a micro USB jack. Common stuff that breaks on laptops: keyboard (hi coffee, hi fat cat), HDMI jack and especially power jacks. Both get hit by batteries going bonkers - I had a couple of laptops with swollen batteries, and I'm happy I still have a phone with a replaceable battery, been through two batteries now. Having to throw away a (possibly) 1500+ € device because COMMON parts, that cost CENTS, cannot be serviced, is beyond ridiculous.
  - npunt 9y ago
    Perhaps you missed this part in my comment: > That said, during this march we need to allow certain frequent repairs (like screens and buttons) to be easily accessible, because that is fair. Keyboards and buttons make sense, as those are mechanical parts users interact with a lot. Ports are a different story. Is over-use of ports really going to be as much an issue in in 5-10 years? We're fast trending away from lots of ports, favoring wireless for networking, audio/video streaming, and charging. And as far as standards go, USB-C and Lightning are better designed to break at the cable without breaking the device - a much better (engineering) approach to solving this problem. Also, at some point if you break USB jacks on 5 of your Samsung phones, perhaps you should buy from a different vendor that can make something more durable. I think that goes for a lot of cheap products - they break more often because they're not built as well. Introducing legislation to reduce the frustration of cheap products today would come at the expense of forward progress and finding engineering solutions to these in the years to come.

sxates 9y ago

Aren't these devices being targeted at the education sector, where they may be assigned to students? Is there perhaps some design intent here to prevent tampering? One other potential benefit may be less worry about your laptop shipment being intercepted in Langley before delivery.

npunt 9y ago
If they are targeted at the education sector, as in deployed in schools, they should be MORE repairable. Students wreck stuff they don't own. For instance, latest (non-Pro) iPad went back to a more repairable chassis that educators are liking because the screen is much easier to replace. And Chromebooks are so cheap if they break it's not a huge loss. I don't think the Surface is particularly targeted to edu enough to alter their hardware assembly decisions though.
- jermaustin1 9y ago
  > Students wreck stuff they don't own. Students wreck stuff the DO own, as well.
  - Retr0spectrum 9y ago
    * Stuff their parents bought for them.
rhodysurf 9y ago
If they are then they seemed to miss the mark with the price
samch 9y ago
In all seriousness, would this be a good candidate for using as a sort of "dummy" travel laptop? I'm thinking of something along the lines of sealing off the ports too. That way, if intercepted or taken for "inspection", there's almost no chance that it could be hacked by physical access without leaving obvious clues.
mcguire 9y ago

sbierwagen 9y ago

You can't take apart a surface laptop without destroying it. "Open" in a laptop context sounds to me more like... opening it, you know, so you can see the display and type on the keyboard.

kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
Yes, would request @dang to modify the title.
- zitterbewegung 9y ago
  Modify the title and point it to iFixit which is a better source. https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Tea...
  - sctb 9y ago
    Thanks, all! We've updated the link from https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/you-cant-open-the-microsoft-surface-laptop-without-literally-destroying-it https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/you-cant-open-the.... (The best way to get our attention for things like this is to email hn@ycombinator.com)
    - kevlar1818 9y ago
      While I understand why you changed the link, I don't completely agree with the executive action. I don't like having my name attached to a link I didn't want shared. Vice is a high-quality publication, and it brought a compelling angle to the iFixit review. As the OP, I wanted to share the Vice article (which links to the iFixit review).

sputknick 9y ago

This sounds to me like a specific instance of the "most users don't want it, so we won't provide it" problem in computing. Similar to the lack of MacBook for power users. People who want to open their laptop are a tiny minority of users, and thus, not a population worth addressing.

algesten 9y ago
Who doesn't want to repair a broken laptop that is just out of warranty, but maybe still have a few good years to go?
- fivestar 9y ago
  There is a debate raging over "right to repair" and the consumer is losing. Honestly, I can't continue buying $1000 smart phones. It's just not worth it. And no, I'm not going to insure them, either. That whole concept is a bag of dicks.
  - smt88 9y ago
    Does "right to repair" have anything to do with "repairability"? There are definitely some things, like iPhones, that might not be possible to build in a repairable way without decreasing the quality of the product. Perhaps Surface is like that, too.
    - mwfunk 9y ago
      This is the biggest conundrum for me. Every engineering decision is a compromise. There are very few cases where making a choice by going down one path isn't a compromise where you're getting one thing but giving up something else. Obviously user-serviceability is a good property for a device to have, but that has a cost as well (a device that is lower quality or less desirable in other ways).
  - foobarchu 9y ago
    I think right to repair is a separate debate. The right to repair movement is about a company being able to sue you for attempting the repair at all. This is about the company doing its darndest to physically prevent repairs. As iFixIt shows, you're welcome to try. Right to repair is also usually centered around software, since that's the crux of the argument used by companies like John Deere. JD technically isn't telling people they can't repair things, just that they can't "hack" their software (an "IP infringement"), which so happens to be a necessary step in repairs.

Lordarminius 9y ago

The Surface laptops, perhaps with the exception of 2012's Surface RT, have earned generally positive reviews, with critics variously commending Microsoft (Microsoft!) for designing attractive-looking hardware that doubles as a reference point for its vision of what a modern Windows-based laptop should look like. Unfortunately for consumers, this seductive vision is apparently incompatible with being able to extend the laptop's useful lifespan on your own This 'seductive vision' is also a direct assault on the consumers right and prerogative (once taken for granted) that he(she) own and do with as he deems fit, any item purchased with his money. First, the abominable Windows 10 which is a brazen intrusion on users privacy; now the Surface. What else MS ?

dlp211 9y ago
There is no assault on the consumer here, you can do whatever you like with the device once it is in your possession. No one is forcing you to buy this.
- Lordarminius 9y ago
  ...you can do whatever you like with the device once it is in your possession.... But you literally cant. Isn't that the point at issue ? I marvel at many responses here that explain this to a "design" issue, "this is what the market wants". No it is not. It is a malicious attempt by Msft to dispossess you of your money and what used to be an unwritten consumer right. We are expected to accept this as the new normal. These companies (msft,apple, etc) are treading the same path as Deere, the tractor makers. How has that turned out for farmers ?
  - dlp211 9y ago
    The difference of course is that in the Deere case, it is a DMCA issue (read legal). Msft is not stopping you in any way from putting the OS that you want on the device, it is not stopping you from opening the device, it isn't even preventing you from upgrading the device. Now have they made it really difficult to do so because of the design choices they made, yes, absolutely, but they are in no way actually preventing you from doing something with the device. You don't have some inherent right to have a device that is easy to disassemble. And the market absolutely wants this. I've owned probably a dozen laptops over the last 15 years or so and the only upgrade I ever did was to add more RAM. I haven't upgraded a laptop in the last 5 years and I always am sure to purchase my laptop with a healthy set of RAM. These devices (Surface and Macbook) are not trying to compete with the $200 devices. They are trying to capture the top 10%(read: those with disposable income) of the market. Panos Panay, Terry Myerson, and Satya Nadella all didn't sit around figuring out how to screw Lordarminius out of their money. They designed a device that the market wanted. Combine the market wants with the fact that there really is just no need to upgrade/update like we used to even just 10 years ago, and this design choice makes perfect sense. My OG 15" Macbook Retina Pro is still a solid laptop today despite being over 5 years old.

dmalvarado 9y ago

You can't eat your cake and have it too. Sleeker, smaller, thinner, cheaper, MOAR BATTERY. That's what the market wants. If the market wanted ClunkBox perpetual computer that was infinitely upgradeable, there would be an option out there. (I'll admit though, the glue is kind of weird. But I guess a natural progression when "no one opens these things anyway")

Const-me 9y ago
The market for laptops is big, and it wants both of these, just different segments. There're lots of upgradeable laptops out there, esp. in corporate segment.
throwaway91111 9y ago
> If the market wanted ClunkBox perpetual computer that was infinitely upgradeable, there would be an option out there. I'm not so sure this is true. What kind of company would produce reliable hardware that you could maintain over decades? Where's the money in making something that high quality?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > What kind of company would produce reliable hardware that you could maintain over decades? A company whose business model was renting out hardware or services requiring the hardware, rather than selling hardware. But, yeah, that's not what your really looking for.
- drannex 9y ago
  The company you're talking about is Lenovo with their Thinkpad series. (ALMOST) all of their computers are built this way and are made to last 8+ years.
muninn_ 9y ago
There is an option out there. It's called the desktop pc.
- 9y ago

ocdtrekkie 9y ago

As much as I kinda loathe this tendency, like the ways most people treat phones, these "luxury"-style laptops like the Surface and MacBook brands I kind of assume to be as-is. Most of the people who can afford to spend that kind of money on a high-price laptop with mid-range specs are the sort to buy a new one in a year or two anyhow. If someone's looking for a computer to last them a number of years, I generally wouldn't recommend a Surface product. A mid-range Acer or Dell is not as pretty or thin, but is going to be easier to repair and upgrade over time.

sliken 9y ago
Back when Mercedes-Benz was less of a luxury car it was fairly common for people to buy them and keep them 2-3 times as long as the average car. Better engineering, better materials, and better design. While enjoying a lower cost to own and a better resale value. Laptops used to be like that as well. A serious use would pay top $$$ and get a well built "tank" of a device. The designs changed less often, parts availability was good, and the more likely parts to break (charging ports, keyboards, and batteries) were replaceable. Now the opposite has happened. The cheap crappy laptops are easier to work on, and the expensive laptops are thin, sealed, and impossible to work on. Sad.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  Different markets. Ever tried a Dell Precision Mobile Workstation? They're beautiful laptops. High-quality parts, easily repairable, parts are plentifully available. Lot of upgrade and expansion potential. Also as large as a small New York apartment. Why does one assume the Surface Laptop (or MacBook Air) is supposed to meet all possible needs?

Animats 9y ago

That's the price of "thin". We should expect mobile electronics to be sealed watertight at the factory. There's a tradeoff between repairable and bulky. Here's a repair job of mine.[1] This is restoring a Teletype Model 15 from the 1930s. These are completely reparable - every part can be removed without damage. IFixit would give it a score of 10. It's big, heavy, loud, and drips oil, but completely repairable. [1] http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43672.0.html http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43672.0.html

awinder 9y ago
Oh come on there's some middleground where you can have repairability without bulky. Macbook pros are not bulky but you can absolutely get inside them to repair & replace parts.
- glhaynes 9y ago
  Modern MacBook Pros are quite a bit thinner (and more solid/sturdy feeling) than just a few years ago; and, poking around at iFixit's site, it looks like they all get 1/10 scores.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    iFixit is weird about Macs. On the Mac, you can at least open the thing up to replace a fan (the only moving part in the whole machine). You can also replace the battery with a little bit of effort to undo the glue. But it only gets 1/10, compared to the 0 the Surface Laptop gets which you can't even open at all.
    - haldean 9y ago
      It's being compared to things like a Thinkpad: the manual for my T430 has guides to walk you through how to replace every single part inside, as well as the product numbers for each part so you can order individual replacements yourself. Not only is everything easily replaceable and upgradable, but they actually help you do it!

foobarchu 9y ago

I'm a little worried what this says about the actual repair process. If I bought one, had an issue, and sent it to Microsoft, would they just throw it away and send me a new one? I'm pretty sure other companies already do this, but it feels like a massive amount of waste generated in the name of cost savings. Especially with the decline of rare earth materials required for these things.

dlp211 9y ago
Rare earth metals are not actually rare.
- foobarchu 9y ago
  Of course not, but they are increasingly harder to find and mine, and processing them is not nice for the environment.
bpye 9y ago
Microsoft can probably scrap it for some parts, screen, keyboard, trackpad, motherboard, speakers, chassis. The cover on the keyboard looks like it's once use though.
- dlp211 9y ago
  Exactly, they'll take what can be reused, get the additional parts, and sell a refurbished unit.

abandonliberty 9y ago

Why do we link to Vice rather than the people who actually did the work? https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Tea...

drannex 9y ago
Because reading the ifixit teardown is actually quite boring. At least the article pointed out literally everything of substance in the teardown. Vice is just an easier way to read it overall.

ge96 9y ago

Oh man that picture slicing through the body with a razor blade made me cringe hahaha. WHYYYYYYYY

bitmapbrother 9y ago

The people that are trying to justify that this is the price you pay for thinness is sickening to me. No, this is the price you pay for inferior engineering. Anything that can be assembled should be able to be disassembled without breaking it.

mee_too 9y ago
Simply not true. As en extreme example the human body is assembled by bio machinery, how do you disassemble it without breaking it?

acd 9y ago

Environment score 0

dlp211 9y ago
You can't actually make that claim at all based off of this. Repairability =/= environmentally friendly.

kbumsik 9y ago

0 out of 10? Omg I've never seen this score before! Are there any devices got zero score in ifixit?

LostWanderer 9y ago

I always wonder if there will ever be a modular laptop coming out with a 10 to 15 year lifetime. Whenever there is a technological stabilization round the corner,There is another different kind of device created and people run towards the new device.

jaclaz 9y ago

As a side note, I always liked this approach: http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.it/2015/02/surface-pro-3-ssd-upgrade-i7-with-1-tb.html http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.blogspot.it/2015/02/surface-pro... to change the SSD in a Surface 3. (you need some guts to follow it) But still it is possible, and it is clear that making a "proper" small cover/latch door for allowing changing that would have costed nothing or next to nothing to MS, and added nothing to thickness, so it is IMHO a "political" decision to accelerate the obsolescence of these devices or to attempt to create a repair monopoly, not unlike what Apple attempted (and to a certain extent managed to succeed with).