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I can vouch for the fact that legal technology as a category does not address the needs of lawyers. And which is obvious to most practicing attorneys. As an exa

I can vouch for the fact that legal technology as a category does not address the needs of lawyers. And which is obvious to most practicing attorneys. As an example: > "spend less time [billing] on research" is not, and never will be, an effective value proposition; and which would be obvious to anyone in anything but the most niche putt-putt fields of practice. Rayiner is of course authority enough on this subject qua the intended market. But I'm here to confirm further that legal technology startups which ignore these central things -- PDFs are essential, confidentiality is maintained on in-house systems with their own vendors, and depth and specificity is critically more important than survey-like breadth -- will probably fail to address any real needs. Source: I worked at a highly atypical IP litigation boutique (where drafts were written in LaTex and we scripted common ediscovery stuff), and later in relevance ranking at a legal tech startup.

rayiner 9y ago
> "spend less time [billing] on research" is not, and never will be, an effective value proposition; and which would be obvious to anyone in anything but the most niche putt-putt fields of practice. I'll note that for many cases these days, there is an incentive to enhance efficiency. Alternative fee arrangements, e.g. fixed monthly fee irrespective of hours, are getting more and more common, particularly with regard to big corps that get sued regularly over the same sorts of cases. Not even commodity work even--these are complex cases for Fortune 100 companies handled by well-regarded firms.
- pnmahoney 9y ago
  Really?? The move away from standard billing had always felt like it would "always be in the future"; but I take that back if that's now A Thing in lit heavy on case research. Still assuming that ^ research is better facilitated by pagerank+semantic centrality, as opposed to the boolean features that the attorneys who do the most motion drafting work are already most well-versed in. The most valuable usage I'd heard of this type of product (the adoption of which I'd had reasons to keep asking extensively around about) was from my pal in international arbitration whose colleague wanted to do a search across courts in one screen. So maybe that was it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Yes. Even in the context of billable-hour matters, it is typical for firms to write off hours that exceed certain targets per sub-unit of the matter. That is, in effect, a shift towards pricing based on unit of work (e.g. a motion to dismiss) rather than pure hours. I disagree about pagerank being appropriate for legal research. Pagerank-type algorithms will help you find the seminal, widely-cited cases in an area. But if you want background law, it is easier to just consult a relevant treatise or other reference book that has those pre-digisted and laid out for you. What really takes time when doing legal research is finding cases that have features in common with yours: similar procedural posture, similar factual wrinkles, etc. Usually, you're looking for a way to argue the opposite of the general rule set forth in the seminal cases. Pagerank-type algorithms won't help you find that; boolean searches on specific phrases will.
    - vqc 9y ago
      Law firms are now internally tracking the number of hours spent on units of work (e.g. motion to dismiss, MSJ, etc) so that they can provide much more accurate pitches and estimates of cost. On the latter point: https://www.judicata.com/ https://www.judicata.com/ understands legal research and has built a legal research tool in the right way.
    - pnmahoney 9y ago
      I'll own that I could see why you might think that I think a certain way but consider that we do not disagree? I pointed out that - with a premium on billing efficiency - the linchpin the product's actually delivering value in such an environment would still rely on (what I note as) _the assumption that_ a semantic+graph -based product does in fact cut down research hours, compared to the boolean-based approach. Your explanation about the value of exceptions to rules in research is correct and would occur to, say, pretty much anyone who has drafted a motion (worth clarifying: not a drag on you). Far from a disagreement, the truth of this premise is why - as I pointed out - the most experienced/valued appellate drafters effectively rely on boolean. (Except, I guess, the 'within' operator might count as a semantic operator. Although that's been in lexis and west for as long as I've seen them, and I suspect have found immense use for much longer than that...) edit: Adding that of course only one of the two following premises need be incorrect (firms should use products which enable them to spend less time on research; the citation graph enables lawyers to spend less time on research while yielding identical quality; firms should use citation graph -based products). Depending on your circumstances, only one may in fact be wrong.
- vqc 9y ago
  I get the feeling Big Law firms are reaching the point where they can no longer rely on increasing hourly rates as a primary source of growth. And I think for the first time in the the history of Big Law, the incentives are such that efficiency might finally be valuable. It might be the only way these law firms can continue to grow revenue. Rates can only go so much higher and there aren't that many more hours in the day.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Revenue per lawyer among the 100 largest law firms is flat in current dollars over the last decade. Rates have gone up a lot, but realization has gone from over 90% to around 80%. There is a lot of pressure to write off time in excess of budget targets, which creates an incentive for achieving efficiencies.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> > "spend less time [billing] on research" > is not, and never will be, an effective value proposition It will be if it means you provide better value for the cost, attracting more and more valuable business. Or, if you can just deliver the same results at the same cost, with fewer associates and paralegals. Sure, the firm won't make more money, but everyone still in it will. And firms don't have interests, individual partners do; firms interests are just a shorthand for those of the partners.
- PatentTroll 9y ago
  The legal services industry is not a free market. There, I said it. First, the value (i.e. "provide better value") is opaque. That's why the legal industry relies so much on the proxy of prestige, because it's really hard to know if you are getting good representation, and then it's even harder to know if the cost is "fair" or whatever. The pricing structure is obfuscated and hidden, comparison shopping is hindered by ethical conflicts, and the billing practices (the dreaded billable hour) are asinine. The industry relies much more on personal relationships and perceived prestige than "value for the cost." And the demand in many areas of law is inelastic, and supply is...well, it's complicated by the whole obsession with 'prestige' and student loan debt. Basically, no, the normal rules DO NOT APPLY to the legal market. And being 'cheaper' is usually not a good thing for a lawyer when dealing with big corporate clients. Less expense translates to lower perceived prestige, something this industry is obsessed with. And to your last suggestion, here's the problem. There leverage in the law firm model is billing more hours by more associates and staff. The way that a partner makes more money is to have more people working under him, classic pyramid structure. If you eliminate the associates, the partner makes less money. Now, you might say, why not then charge more for the partners time? Because it's way easier to charge 3x associates at a going rate than a single partner at a 2x rate. Because clients see that big scary hourly number at balk, say that some other law firm doesn't charge that much, and why are you worth that much an hour. It doesn't work, even if the same amount of work gets done at the same price. And, the only measure of "amount of work" that lawyers have is billable hours! So a client would see a higher rate for less work. They don't take kindly to it. I'm not defending any of the above, I hope you realize. I am frustrated with the industry because there are soooo many gains to be had here. It's absolutely silly how backwards and inefficient most law firms are.
gnicholas 9y ago
Lots of these comments ended up focusing on research, which applies heavily in litigation but hardly at all in transactional work. Justin confirmed in response to my other comment that their initial market is transactional, so perhaps what they have in mind is somewhat different (related to managing various transactional flows, like fundraising, M/A, etc.)

rayiner 9y ago

> "spend less time [billing] on research" is not, and never will be, an effective value proposition; and which would be obvious to anyone in anything but the most niche putt-putt fields of practice. I'll note that for many cases these days, there is an incentive to enhance efficiency. Alternative fee arrangements, e.g. fixed monthly fee irrespective of hours, are getting more and more common, particularly with regard to big corps that get sued regularly over the same sorts of cases. Not even commodity work even--these are complex cases for Fortune 100 companies handled by well-regarded firms.

pnmahoney 9y ago
Really?? The move away from standard billing had always felt like it would "always be in the future"; but I take that back if that's now A Thing in lit heavy on case research. Still assuming that ^ research is better facilitated by pagerank+semantic centrality, as opposed to the boolean features that the attorneys who do the most motion drafting work are already most well-versed in. The most valuable usage I'd heard of this type of product (the adoption of which I'd had reasons to keep asking extensively around about) was from my pal in international arbitration whose colleague wanted to do a search across courts in one screen. So maybe that was it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- rayiner 9y ago
  Yes. Even in the context of billable-hour matters, it is typical for firms to write off hours that exceed certain targets per sub-unit of the matter. That is, in effect, a shift towards pricing based on unit of work (e.g. a motion to dismiss) rather than pure hours. I disagree about pagerank being appropriate for legal research. Pagerank-type algorithms will help you find the seminal, widely-cited cases in an area. But if you want background law, it is easier to just consult a relevant treatise or other reference book that has those pre-digisted and laid out for you. What really takes time when doing legal research is finding cases that have features in common with yours: similar procedural posture, similar factual wrinkles, etc. Usually, you're looking for a way to argue the opposite of the general rule set forth in the seminal cases. Pagerank-type algorithms won't help you find that; boolean searches on specific phrases will.
  - vqc 9y ago
    Law firms are now internally tracking the number of hours spent on units of work (e.g. motion to dismiss, MSJ, etc) so that they can provide much more accurate pitches and estimates of cost. On the latter point: https://www.judicata.com/ https://www.judicata.com/ understands legal research and has built a legal research tool in the right way.
  - pnmahoney 9y ago
    I'll own that I could see why you might think that I think a certain way but consider that we do not disagree? I pointed out that - with a premium on billing efficiency - the linchpin the product's actually delivering value in such an environment would still rely on (what I note as) _the assumption that_ a semantic+graph -based product does in fact cut down research hours, compared to the boolean-based approach. Your explanation about the value of exceptions to rules in research is correct and would occur to, say, pretty much anyone who has drafted a motion (worth clarifying: not a drag on you). Far from a disagreement, the truth of this premise is why - as I pointed out - the most experienced/valued appellate drafters effectively rely on boolean. (Except, I guess, the 'within' operator might count as a semantic operator. Although that's been in lexis and west for as long as I've seen them, and I suspect have found immense use for much longer than that...) edit: Adding that of course only one of the two following premises need be incorrect (firms should use products which enable them to spend less time on research; the citation graph enables lawyers to spend less time on research while yielding identical quality; firms should use citation graph -based products). Depending on your circumstances, only one may in fact be wrong.
vqc 9y ago
I get the feeling Big Law firms are reaching the point where they can no longer rely on increasing hourly rates as a primary source of growth. And I think for the first time in the the history of Big Law, the incentives are such that efficiency might finally be valuable. It might be the only way these law firms can continue to grow revenue. Rates can only go so much higher and there aren't that many more hours in the day.
- rayiner 9y ago
  Revenue per lawyer among the 100 largest law firms is flat in current dollars over the last decade. Rates have gone up a lot, but realization has gone from over 90% to around 80%. There is a lot of pressure to write off time in excess of budget targets, which creates an incentive for achieving efficiencies.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> > "spend less time [billing] on research" > is not, and never will be, an effective value proposition It will be if it means you provide better value for the cost, attracting more and more valuable business. Or, if you can just deliver the same results at the same cost, with fewer associates and paralegals. Sure, the firm won't make more money, but everyone still in it will. And firms don't have interests, individual partners do; firms interests are just a shorthand for those of the partners.

PatentTroll 9y ago
The legal services industry is not a free market. There, I said it. First, the value (i.e. "provide better value") is opaque. That's why the legal industry relies so much on the proxy of prestige, because it's really hard to know if you are getting good representation, and then it's even harder to know if the cost is "fair" or whatever. The pricing structure is obfuscated and hidden, comparison shopping is hindered by ethical conflicts, and the billing practices (the dreaded billable hour) are asinine. The industry relies much more on personal relationships and perceived prestige than "value for the cost." And the demand in many areas of law is inelastic, and supply is...well, it's complicated by the whole obsession with 'prestige' and student loan debt. Basically, no, the normal rules DO NOT APPLY to the legal market. And being 'cheaper' is usually not a good thing for a lawyer when dealing with big corporate clients. Less expense translates to lower perceived prestige, something this industry is obsessed with. And to your last suggestion, here's the problem. There leverage in the law firm model is billing more hours by more associates and staff. The way that a partner makes more money is to have more people working under him, classic pyramid structure. If you eliminate the associates, the partner makes less money. Now, you might say, why not then charge more for the partners time? Because it's way easier to charge 3x associates at a going rate than a single partner at a 2x rate. Because clients see that big scary hourly number at balk, say that some other law firm doesn't charge that much, and why are you worth that much an hour. It doesn't work, even if the same amount of work gets done at the same price. And, the only measure of "amount of work" that lawyers have is billable hours! So a client would see a higher rate for less work. They don't take kindly to it. I'm not defending any of the above, I hope you realize. I am frustrated with the industry because there are soooo many gains to be had here. It's absolutely silly how backwards and inefficient most law firms are.

gnicholas 9y ago

Lots of these comments ended up focusing on research, which applies heavily in litigation but hardly at all in transactional work. Justin confirmed in response to my other comment that their initial market is transactional, so perhaps what they have in mind is somewhat different (related to managing various transactional flows, like fundraising, M/A, etc.)