3 ms·

> there is no self-sustaining city on earth Indeed. That's an other concept that I'm not sure Musk is fully aware of. Economies, industrial production system

> there is no self-sustaining city on earth Indeed. That's an other concept that I'm not sure Musk is fully aware of. Economies, industrial production systems are highly inter-dependent on Earth. In our "technological civilization", even to build something as simple as a pencil, you need lots of people collaborating from all over the planet [1]. So to me the idea of building a "self-sustaining technological civilization" on mars sounds quite ludicrous. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Gppi-O3a8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Gppi-O3a8

obastani 9y ago
Just because people collaborate from all over the planet to make the pencil, doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. This kind of collaboration simply enables economics of scale to kick in (and possibly improve quality as well).
- grondilu 9y ago
  "doesn't mean that's the way it has to be" Sure, but it does show how speculative Musk's plan for a "self-sustaining city" is. There is no such city on Earth. What makes him think it would work on mars?
  - sqeaky 9y ago
    Every group of people was self sufficient (or dead) at some point. We just want to keep improving our quality of life at rate that demands more division of labor. Scale that back a bit, of course colonists with have a lower quality of life, they are colonists. Then scale back from 100% self supporting and make a place on mars that is most self-supporting or self-supporting in an emergency. They don't need to be self sufficient from day 1, they need need to be self sufficient enough to eventually get by without constant injection of resources. At some point that can be part of this economy that makes it unprofitable to have self-sufficiency on Earth, but because of trade costs the economics will look different, but not impossible. Locally source will be 1% the cost so buying from Earth with done only for the most valuable items. Things like seeds or IP make perfect sense to buy across the gulf of space. Thing like bulk lumber and toilet paper do not and probably never will.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  "Just because people collaborate from all over the planet to make the pencil, doesn't mean that's the way it has to be" I agree. I think smaller cycles of dependency are possible (and for the sake of stability maybe better). But we probably have to figure that out, before we go to mars ...
m-j-fox 9y ago
Don't forget the 3 million acres of farmland you need to support your 1 million city folk. We might be able to breed radiation-resistant corn -- not so confident about radiation-resistant chickens. The martians will all be vegan. Good for them.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  If you can have radiation shelters for humans, then you can have them for chickens as well ... (not saying that it is worth the effort to go for it in the beginning, that would be up to the martians to decide I guess)

obastani 9y ago

Just because people collaborate from all over the planet to make the pencil, doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. This kind of collaboration simply enables economics of scale to kick in (and possibly improve quality as well).

grondilu 9y ago
"doesn't mean that's the way it has to be" Sure, but it does show how speculative Musk's plan for a "self-sustaining city" is. There is no such city on Earth. What makes him think it would work on mars?
- sqeaky 9y ago
  Every group of people was self sufficient (or dead) at some point. We just want to keep improving our quality of life at rate that demands more division of labor. Scale that back a bit, of course colonists with have a lower quality of life, they are colonists. Then scale back from 100% self supporting and make a place on mars that is most self-supporting or self-supporting in an emergency. They don't need to be self sufficient from day 1, they need need to be self sufficient enough to eventually get by without constant injection of resources. At some point that can be part of this economy that makes it unprofitable to have self-sufficiency on Earth, but because of trade costs the economics will look different, but not impossible. Locally source will be 1% the cost so buying from Earth with done only for the most valuable items. Things like seeds or IP make perfect sense to buy across the gulf of space. Thing like bulk lumber and toilet paper do not and probably never will.
hutzlibu 9y ago
"Just because people collaborate from all over the planet to make the pencil, doesn't mean that's the way it has to be" I agree. I think smaller cycles of dependency are possible (and for the sake of stability maybe better). But we probably have to figure that out, before we go to mars ...

m-j-fox 9y ago

Don't forget the 3 million acres of farmland you need to support your 1 million city folk. We might be able to breed radiation-resistant corn -- not so confident about radiation-resistant chickens. The martians will all be vegan. Good for them.

hutzlibu 9y ago
If you can have radiation shelters for humans, then you can have them for chickens as well ... (not saying that it is worth the effort to go for it in the beginning, that would be up to the martians to decide I guess)