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As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? Escaping all the problems of Earth to try and rebuild a society from first principles? You can pretend I was

As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? Escaping all the problems of Earth to try and rebuild a society from first principles? You can pretend I was condescending and downvote all you like, but it doesn't change the facts that I stated. It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth.

ceejayoz 9y ago
> As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? What was arrogant in OP's post? They said they personally yearn for a new frontier, and that Mars satisfies it for them. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain.
- antisthenes 9y ago
  What was condescending about my post? > It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain. There's nothing stopping you from doing that in the inhospitable areas on Earth. If you bring the money and the plan, most governments will let you make a planned city. This is precisely the arrogance I was talking about. Thinking it would be any different because of the extremely inhospitable conditions. If you don't see the arrogance here - I'm afraid there's nothing I can do to convince you of it. It's simply a difference of viewpoints.
  - sqeaky 9y ago
    The condescending things about your post were your implicit assumptions that the other poster was incapable of basic math, the presumption that as soon as he saw the basic the math he would turn to your way of thinking, the presumption that your way of thinking was clearly superior and finally calling him naive. He desires to be part of something grand and huge at the beginning of an era, then you insult and deride his grand dream by belittling it and telling him to make a planned city. It seems to me that he would rather be the lowliest janitor on Mars than a Mayor of planned city here and you cannot fathom how that could be, so you presume he is wrong or confused He wants something that is impossible now. This is a common human goal. You fail to understand human nature then claim to have all the answers. Your points may all have been correct, but they were not the points that were needed. I am not saying either of you are wrong or right, but you clearly brought plenty of arrogance and condescension.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > What was condescending about my post? Gee, probably the "If you'd just go camping you'd see your lifelong dream is bullshit" and "You're naïve and hubristic" bits.
    - antisthenes 9y ago
      Clearly, you're fine putting words in other people's mouths and making subjective claims about the nature of one's post. You're fine rejecting my arguments for why his post is arrogant, but somehow yours about why my post is condescending are valid. That's a toxic and arrogant way of arguing, so I'm not surprised you're projecting something I didn't say. Honestly I would have expected better from an HN audience, but techies are still people... Also quite indicative of what would happen on Mars.
      - ceejayoz 9y ago
        I'm not putting words in your mouth. Direct quotes: "No offense, but you sound like a person who hasn't been outdoors a lot, not even on an overnight hike." and "That should hopefully rid you of the naivete and hubris about space frontierism."
- babyrainbow 9y ago
  >with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc... Do you know what is the root cause of everything that is messy with todays life on earth? I would say it is human nature. So if you are sending human to mars...I say it is only a matter of time......
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    "Human nature" encompasses the range from Somali warlords to Swiss efficiency. Some of what's messy with today's life on Earth is that we didn't know better - we clear-cut forests, we built Boston's streets to fit horses and not cars, we built houses before public transit, etc. A city built from scratch in 2017 is going to look a lot different than a city that grew organically since the 1600s. Part of the appeal of Mars for me is the ability to build a planet knowing what we know now about city planning.
    - babyrainbow 9y ago
      > we clear-cut forests Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? > we built Boston's streets to fit horses and not cars, we built houses before public transit, etc. You want to leave earth because streets are too crammed for cars? Seriously?
      - ceejayoz 9y ago
        > Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? We're not perfect, but we've come a long ways from the excesses of the early Industrial Revolution in how we treat our environment. The developed world generally practices sustainable logging these days. A Martian colony would use clean energy, etc. > You want to leave earth because streets are too crammed for cars? Seriously? Congratulations on slaying the strawman. No, that's simply an minor example of how starting a planetary civilization with a fresh slate and modern knowledge could have benefits, despite "human nature".
        babyrainbow 9y ago
babyrainbow 9y ago
>It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. >It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. 100% agree on both points. Spacex is just selling dreams. Sadly, people today are so enamored with technology that they easily buy into such dreams sold by these companies....
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  Dreams are how major progress is made, which is important when people realize incremental progress just won't cut it. "I have a dream." -Martin Luther King Jr.
  - babyrainbow 9y ago
    Sure sure..But those are ones own dreams. Not the ones sold to you in exchange for investment.... Big difference pal.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      If I dream to be a writer, it's not a bad thing if someone's out there selling pens and paper. I've dreamt about Mars colonization long before SpaceX existed.
adekok 9y ago
> It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. Why? And I'll note that insults and ad hominems don't make a rational argument. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. No one said that. If your best arguments are insults and straw men... well, it's best to avoid a technical forum like HN where there are people trained in rationality, math, and rocket science.

ceejayoz 9y ago

> As opposed to sheer arrogance that was OP's post? What was arrogant in OP's post? They said they personally yearn for a new frontier, and that Mars satisfies it for them. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain.

antisthenes 9y ago
What was condescending about my post? > It'd be an entire planet built with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc. Whether a Martian society winds up better is hard to say, but different seems pretty certain. There's nothing stopping you from doing that in the inhospitable areas on Earth. If you bring the money and the plan, most governments will let you make a planned city. This is precisely the arrogance I was talking about. Thinking it would be any different because of the extremely inhospitable conditions. If you don't see the arrogance here - I'm afraid there's nothing I can do to convince you of it. It's simply a difference of viewpoints.
- sqeaky 9y ago
  The condescending things about your post were your implicit assumptions that the other poster was incapable of basic math, the presumption that as soon as he saw the basic the math he would turn to your way of thinking, the presumption that your way of thinking was clearly superior and finally calling him naive. He desires to be part of something grand and huge at the beginning of an era, then you insult and deride his grand dream by belittling it and telling him to make a planned city. It seems to me that he would rather be the lowliest janitor on Mars than a Mayor of planned city here and you cannot fathom how that could be, so you presume he is wrong or confused He wants something that is impossible now. This is a common human goal. You fail to understand human nature then claim to have all the answers. Your points may all have been correct, but they were not the points that were needed. I am not saying either of you are wrong or right, but you clearly brought plenty of arrogance and condescension.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > What was condescending about my post? Gee, probably the "If you'd just go camping you'd see your lifelong dream is bullshit" and "You're naïve and hubristic" bits.
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    Clearly, you're fine putting words in other people's mouths and making subjective claims about the nature of one's post. You're fine rejecting my arguments for why his post is arrogant, but somehow yours about why my post is condescending are valid. That's a toxic and arrogant way of arguing, so I'm not surprised you're projecting something I didn't say. Honestly I would have expected better from an HN audience, but techies are still people... Also quite indicative of what would happen on Mars.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      I'm not putting words in your mouth. Direct quotes: "No offense, but you sound like a person who hasn't been outdoors a lot, not even on an overnight hike." and "That should hopefully rid you of the naivete and hubris about space frontierism."
babyrainbow 9y ago
>with modern understanding of city planning, environmentalism, governance, etc... Do you know what is the root cause of everything that is messy with todays life on earth? I would say it is human nature. So if you are sending human to mars...I say it is only a matter of time......
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  "Human nature" encompasses the range from Somali warlords to Swiss efficiency. Some of what's messy with today's life on Earth is that we didn't know better - we clear-cut forests, we built Boston's streets to fit horses and not cars, we built houses before public transit, etc. A city built from scratch in 2017 is going to look a lot different than a city that grew organically since the 1600s. Part of the appeal of Mars for me is the ability to build a planet knowing what we know now about city planning.
  - babyrainbow 9y ago
    > we clear-cut forests Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? > we built Boston's streets to fit horses and not cars, we built houses before public transit, etc. You want to leave earth because streets are too crammed for cars? Seriously?
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      > Have we stopped doing this since we have know better for a long time now? We're not perfect, but we've come a long ways from the excesses of the early Industrial Revolution in how we treat our environment. The developed world generally practices sustainable logging these days. A Martian colony would use clean energy, etc. > You want to leave earth because streets are too crammed for cars? Seriously? Congratulations on slaying the strawman. No, that's simply an minor example of how starting a planetary civilization with a fresh slate and modern knowledge could have benefits, despite "human nature".
      - babyrainbow 9y ago

babyrainbow 9y ago

>It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. >It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. 100% agree on both points. Spacex is just selling dreams. Sadly, people today are so enamored with technology that they easily buy into such dreams sold by these companies....

enraged_camel 9y ago
Dreams are how major progress is made, which is important when people realize incremental progress just won't cut it. "I have a dream." -Martin Luther King Jr.
- babyrainbow 9y ago
  Sure sure..But those are ones own dreams. Not the ones sold to you in exchange for investment.... Big difference pal.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    If I dream to be a writer, it's not a bad thing if someone's out there selling pens and paper. I've dreamt about Mars colonization long before SpaceX existed.

adekok 9y ago

> It's extremely naive and arrogant to spend the resources to colonize Mars than try and make more places habitable on Earth. Why? And I'll note that insults and ad hominems don't make a rational argument. > It's even more arrogant to believe that a Mars society will be any different or better than the society on Earth. No one said that. If your best arguments are insults and straw men... well, it's best to avoid a technical forum like HN where there are people trained in rationality, math, and rocket science.